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Death Guard v0.5-0.6

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Thanks again for feedback, both of you!

atension wrote:
I just like daemons. The way the list is currently stuctured with more expensive fornations its hard to justify including them and sacrificing formation count. Not that thats necessarily bad.

Ah, so not the cost-effectiveness of the demons themselves.

Regarding Zombies as Core, I think we're talking at cross-purposes, I didn't read your post as removing Plague Marines from Core, I was just asking whether you thought Zombies would grant access to Support formations.

Having thought through it some more, my initial negative reaction is reinforced. Even if they don't allow Support formations, Plague Zombies are already one of the most irritating formations in the list to play against, and removing restrictions will allow lists that simply aren't going to make for interesting games - for example eight Plague Zombie Infestations is less than half of a 3000 list, for an average of 80 Fearless bases. You could basically make it impossible for your opponent to advance out of their Deployment Zone the entire game, and regardless of effectiveness, that definitely falls into negative play experiences.

That said, I'm open to working on an additional type of Zombie formation as Core, presumably without Teleport, which could also be a place to experiment with enemy INF casualties turning into more Zombies.

For AVs, Death Guard are supposed to have fewer vehicles, but that's already represented in the list compared to Black Company, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons where the ACs unlock Support formations. If I remember correctly, you were a fan of moving the AC and AAC formations to Core when it was done.




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Terminators - yes, I think they're going to have to go back to a single statline. It seems that EA simply doesn't have the design space for 'Assault Terminators' in a useful fashion. Note that the 5+ INV and reduced price also comes with a removal of Thick Rear Armour, so they're less robust when surrounded. Plus Mounted and Walker to make them less manoeuvrable.

Steve54's original version had 3+ RA and they were just painful to try and kill, while again being just as easy to break.


Nurgling Infestation - agreed, this is one of the most successful additions to the list, in terms of fluffiness and making the formations play differently.


Defiler variants - there's no good solution. :-(
If I remove the Defilers, atension will have another fit. ;-)
If I remove the Desecrators, the list has no on-table AA, and no obvious place to put it that doesn't contradict the background pretty badly (Obliterators, for example, as their virus gets messed up by Nurgle).
If I remove the Plague Hulk, we're taking away the only Power-specific Defiler variant that is actually canon.


Plague Tower Transport - this is taken verbatim from the 'official' Stigmatus Coven list, but the wording is horrible - GUCs are listed as 16, and then in the second sentence are said to take up two spaces.


Nurgle's Rot - Yes, it's fiddly, but moving it back to being a formation-level ability means reworking the Beasts of Nurgle yet again, as they're currently balanced by having Nurgle's Rot as a unit-level ability.

For some more blue-sky thinking, changing Nurgle's Rot so that it creates Zombies would be a possibility, but in the modern background it's the Walking Pox that does that, not Nurgle's Rot. The end result of Nurgle's Rot has always been… Plaguebearers.

Sooooo. What if casualties to Nurgle's Rot formations add to the Daemon Pool? Restricted to INF casualties in assaults. This would obviously need lots of experimenting for cost, limits on how many can be converted into Lesser Daemons, formation-level vs unit-level etc. but would have the positive side effect of making Daemonic Pact more attractive.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Yeah, zombies are evil - or at least the teleporting ones are! No more please! :-)

Could possibly live with Pox-walker formations as hoard infantry on foot, but still not sure if they should be core... Would be a interesting option but would need to ensure it doesn't allow activation spam - i guess large formation sizes which would act as defensive screens and tar pits around objectives/blitz. Worth trying maybe.

However, Nurgles rot causing "powering up" of the daemon pool is a class A great idea! Would be nice to see more plague bearers about (and if people choose zombies/pox walkers to represent them then fine) and creates a nice feel of an infection growing as the battle develops.

I say draft a proposal, something along the lines of a D6 chance (5/6?) of generating a daemon pool point for each casualty in CC by a unit with NR? (not just infantry, I'm sure tank crews would make fine plague bearers and it would be too fiddly/fringe otherwise). Importantly it give NR units a definite niche and reason for list inclusion and tactical use (ie. aiming early casualties to boost later combats). Might even be worth adding the ability to Nurglings?

The only potential OP unit i can think of is the terminators, which potentially could rack up a lot of CC kills early on and then recycle them into plague bearers the next turn - then again, making them worth their points has always been a problem so maybe this would help??

Though not quite clear on the wording of Nurgles Rotters : "The formation counts as having an additional unit with Nurgle's Rot" - "do you mean additional unit ability"?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Quote:
Having thought through it some more, my initial negative reaction is reinforced. Even if they don't allow Support formations, Plague Zombies are already one of the most irritating formations in the list to play against, and removing restrictions will allow lists that simply aren't going to make for interesting games - for example eight Plague Zombie Infestations is less than half of a 3000 list, for an average of 80 Fearless bases. You could basically make it impossible for your opponent to advance out of their Deployment Zone the entire game, and regardless of effectiveness, that definitely falls into negative play experiences. 

That said, I'm open to working on an additional type of Zombie formation as Core, presumably without Teleport, which could also be a place to experiment with enemy INF casualties turning into more Zombies.

For AVs, Death Guard are supposed to have fewer vehicles, but that's already represented in the list compared to Black Company, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons where the ACs unlock Support formations. If I remember correctly, you were a fan of moving the AC and AAC formations to Core when it was done.


I was for the AAC not the AC. Both seems too much. You are absolutely correct about the zombie formations being too annoying and spammable in thier current state moving to thd core selection. Yeah they would need to lose teleport and or be adjusted in other ways.

I think you are really on to something though with kills contributing daemon pool expansion. That would be really interesting and a good way to ensure daemons are included. Also a good way to balance out the cost of some of the more expensive formations rather than making them ungodly resilient or giving them near guaranteed assault wins.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:25 am 
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Can't say I see the need for a cheap zombie core formation. One of the weaknesses of the list is the small activation account, but it's countered by more resilient and durable elite formations.

The list can already easily fit three of the formations (2 in support and one from the plague ship.) Not sure opponents would enjoy there being even more!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Provisional wording, but two versions as I'm not sure if it should be unit-level or formation-level:


Nurgle's Rot (per unit version 061)

Nurgle's Rot is a pestilential disease from the warp that turns the infected into Plaguebearers.

Nurgle’s Rot affects enemy casualties in assaults with formations containing units with Nurgle's Rot. Before 1.12.7 Work Out Results, each enemy unit killed in the assault increases the Death Guard player’s Lesser Daemon Pool by one. This is limited to the number of surviving units in the assault that have Nurgle’s Rot, including those in formations that provided Supporting Fire.

Nurgle's Rot does not affect enemy casualties belonging to the Chaos faction, Nurgle.


Nurgle's Rot (formation version 061)

Nurgle's Rot is a pestilential disease from the warp that turns the infected into Plaguebearers.

Nurgle’s Rot affects enemy casualties inflicted in assaults with formations with Nurgle's Rot. Before 1.12.6 Supporting Fire, roll a d6 for each enemy unit killed in the assault. Each roll of 5+ increases the Death Guard player’s Lesser Daemon Pool by one.

Nurgle's Rot does not affect enemy casualties belonging to the Chaos faction, Nurgle.



In both cases it's likely to be combined with Beasts of Nurgle becoming a unit upgrade (probably with the Chaos Spawn) rather than being in the Daemon Pool, so that all summoned lesser daemons are Plaguebearers.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:03 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
Can't say I see the need for a cheap zombie core formation. One of the weaknesses of the list is the small activation account, but it's countered by more resilient and durable elite formations.

The list can already easily fit three of the formations (2 in support and one from the plague ship.) Not sure opponents would enjoy there being even more!

Note that the Support Formation isn't 0-2 like it is in the LatD list, it's 'just' another Support Formation so two per Retinue.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:07 pm 
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A cleaner and more thorough version of the Nurgle's Rot rule:


Nurgle's Rot (Plaguebearer formation version 062)

Nurgle's Rot is a pestilential disease from the warp that turns the infected into Plaguebearers.

If a formation with Nurgle’s Rot assaults or is assaulted, roll a d6 for each enemy unit that is killed in the assault. Do this immediately before 1.12.7 Work Out Results. For each result of 5+, increase the Death Guard Daemon Pool by one.

In the case of ties and subsequent rounds of combat, do not roll again for casualties from previous rounds of the combat.

Nurgle's Rot does not affect enemy casualties belonging to the Chaos faction, Nurgle.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:32 am 
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I think 6+ would be better. Than the rule will not come into effect as much and potenrially skew the game result (by adding a bigger number of units to the army).

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:39 pm 
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I know what you mean, but for me that would have the opposite effect - by making it less likely, you're actually making the end result more swingy.

Note that this version of Nurgle's Rot is only on the Supreme Commander, Daemon Prince and a formation upgrade with an increased price, this won't be all over the list like in 0.6.0.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:33 pm 
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0.62 batrep up, updated army to follow...

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=33744

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm 
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0.6.2 is now up in the first post, see http://ijw.on-rev.com/armyforge_temp/ch ... g062_NETEA for list-building.

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