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Death Guard 0.7

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Decimator has no disrupt

The cc 4+ is an additional thing.

Range, IC and MW are key properties to be effective even on double.

30cm range and disrupt on a 15cm unit is rubbish imo. Sorry. The output will be by magnitudes lower than that of a Decimator. Only buff is additional units in the formation, which will make it expensive and most likely BTS.

Stormsword is compared to Decimator on a 1:1 basis a lame joke.

Plaguereaper should be cheaper in comparison but that would sit I'll with stormsword.

A really big factor is: how are the synergies in the respective lists for those SHT as those could and should have an impact on cost as well not only pure statistics on values. But of course that would mean to take many factors into consideration like list structure, unlocks, natural synergy formations and would benefit certain builds as well as it would punish others. So a tricky but very valid one.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
Decimator has no disrupt

The cc 4+ is an additional thing.

? ? ?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:32 pm 
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The Decimator has IC and MW but no disrupt as writte in Armigers post.

When evaluating synergies or stand alone qualities cc factor should be considered as well. Stormsword as worse than Decimator in that regard


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:14 pm 
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Ah, you're correcting Armiger's comparison? That wasn't clear from your post...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:28 pm 
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First post updated with version 0.7.2 with the Plaguereaper changes and some other minor tweaks.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:42 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
Ah, you're correcting Armiger's comparison? That wasn't clear from your post...


Sorry. Should have quoted


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:06 pm 
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It’s all good. That’s what I get for copying, pasting, and typing quickly while at work!

I like the idea of realigning the Plaguereaper armament to be closer to a Baneblade (other than the main gun of course), and understand the decision to keep the points lower given the lack of access to March orders. It’s going to be tough getting those tanks up the board on a maximum 30cm move!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:10 pm 
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Oops, the other tweak in 0.7.2 is that Land Raider upgrades now use the loyalist Marine pricing of 75pt each or 125pt for a pair. Which, considering they aren’t Fearless and don’t have ATSKNF, is still pretty pricey...

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:46 am 
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Armiger84 wrote:
Did some thinking about this over breakfast, and before responding wanted to run some comparisons against other DC3 barrage-armed war engines with 15cm moves. Mind you, the comparisons are by no means comprehensive:

1) Decimator - 45cm range FFA main gun, 3BP, MW, IC, Disrupt - Fearless - SR 4, IR 1+ - 225pts (Black Legion, Iron Warriors)

2) Stormsword - 45cm range FFA main gun, 3BP, IC, Disrupt - SR 2, IR 2+ - 200pts (Minervans)

3) Plague Reaper - 30cm range FFA main gun, 3BP, IC, Disrupt - Fearless - SR 4, IR 1+ - 200pts, +175pts ea (Death Guard)

Now, baseline biases:

I haven’t played with or against Plaguereapers yet. I’d probably need Gunslinger007 to get back from his mountain climbing expedition for that (seriously, what is up with Taccoms and mountaineering?), so everything here is theorycraft and/or abstracted from using Decimators.

I think the Decimator is reasonably priced for the combination of speed, range, vulnerability to fire, and durability. They have to move to be effective, and firing on a double really reduces their effectiveness against infantry & armor more than people realize on first glance.

Fearless and an IR 1+ for activation really stands out - they’ll keep coming back from breaks and still activate pretty reliably under fire.

For a loss of 15cm, yeah I think the Plaguereaper is reasonably priced at 200, even with Fearless. The range difference looks minor on paper but has a huge impact on the table. It’s a rare day my Decimators ever cycle up their Reaper Autocannons, to the point where I half suspect the crews keep them unloaded :P. Plaguereapers are going to be doing a lot less even on turn 2 than Decimators and Stormswords (possibly still Marching), which grants the opponent more time to unload on solo WEs on their way in and keep them off the midline without having fired a shot back yet.

Removing FFA fits the lore and the GW studio model (it’s a modified Baneblade after all), but also opens up better opportunities for more effective Sustained Fire activations once it’s made it to the midline.

Bottom Line (IMO):

If anything, I’d say take FFA off the main gun, but consider increasing the cost for additional WEs back up to 200pts.

It differentiates the tank from the other vehicles that fill that role while being lore-appropriate. At the same time, because of Fearless if 2-3 of them make it alive to the midline squadroned, you are much more likely to blast Infantry out of cover or off of an objective even without MW, and they still stand a good chance of winning the following turn’s engagement action.
I think sticking with the Plaguereaper is the way to go. It's a pretty iconic nurgle war engine and it'd be a shame to compromise it.

I've used the PR in several of my lists and enjoy it to add in more disrupt BP, but it's far from a top competative option in most lists. It requires nurglings to ensure it has staying power, and, as noted, its speed and range keep it from being optimally effective until turn 3.

All that said, I think 200pts feels right for it. For 75 pts more, not counting nurgling upgrades, you can get a plaguehound, which is an all around better choice and well worth those points.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:54 pm 
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I got a test game in last night, although not a particularly serious game, mostly concentrating on Plaguereaper changes. It was against White Scars running something like this. Note that we're borrowing some of the FERC changes for Marines for club games, as they make ground-pounding Marines a bit more interesting to use.
Whirlwinds with Hunter
Tacticals with Supreme Commander
Tacticals with Librarian
AP Predators with 2 Vindicators
AT Predators with Hunter
Terminators, Land Raiders and Chaplain
Bikes with Chaplain
Fighters
Land Speeders

I was using:
Testing Reapers, 3000 POINTS
Death Guard (NetEA V0.7.2 Taccoms Thread)
==================================================

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [365]
Plaguecaster Lord, 4 Death Guard Rhino, 4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [465]
Plaguecaster Lord, Lord of Contagion (Supreme Commander), 4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, 3 (Beasts) Beasts of Nurgle

BLIGHT DRONE SWARM* [200]
4 Blight Drones

PLAGUE ZOMBIE INFESTATION* [175]
3+2D6 Plague Zombies

PLAGUEREAPER COMPANY [490]
2 Plague Reaper, Nurgling Infestation (3 Nurgling Swarms), (Walkers) Plague Hulk

PLAGUEREAPER COMPANY [275]
Plague Reaper, Contagion Tower

REPUGNANT TITAN [625]

DEATH GUARD CHOSEN [405]
4 Plague Marine Chosen, 2 (Walkers) Plague Hulk, (Walkers) Death Guard Dreadnought (Chem Launchers), (Beasts) Beasts of Nurgle


So the Plaguereapers were tested as:
A Blitz guard with a Contagion. I've tried this a few times in EpicUK lists, with slightly mixed results - having a blitz guard that can put down indirect Disrupt barrages (even with a single BP) can be good for finishing off broken formations, prepping assaults etc, on the other hand the single Contagion makes the Plaguereaper noticeably easier to break, as the Contagion can be picked out as a target and is much easier to kill - then a single extra BM breaks the formation. I may have to try it with Nurglings as well, but then you're looking at 315 points and could take a formation of Contagions for very little more.

An active hunting formation of two Plaguereapers, a Plague Hulk for AA and assaults, and some Nurglings to sacifice if assaulted and to help the formation spread out even further across multiple objectives.


Deployment:

Image


The Repugnant fires on one of the Tacticals, not quite breaking them:

Image


In turn 2, the Repugnant Doubles, gets four hits on the Terminator formation and... kills three stands of Terminators! Followed by the Chosen ad Plague Hulks charging in and reducing the Terminator formation to a single Land Raider, before getting terminated with extreme prejudice by the anti-tank Predators...

Image


Zombies assault the Preds + Vindicators, but lose, before the Plaguereapers made a mess of them.

Image


We stopped at the end of turn four, with the only scored objective was my holding all three of my objectives - there just weren't enough unbroken formations left to clear two Land Speeders off an enemy objective!

Image


So, the effects of the Plaguereaper changes:

Blitz guard - as expected, this managed an indirect barrage in the first couple of turns. In turn 3 the fire arc really kicked in, as I could Sustain onto a nearby Tactical formation and break them (and kill the SC!), while in turn 4 the addition of the Contagion allowed me to Double away from the Blitz with the Plaguereaper and still hold the Blitz.

Hunting formation - fire arcs didn't make much difference for this formation, as they Advanced or Doubled every turn, however the Plague Hulk gave me some much-needed AA support on the right flank, which was hard to suppress due to the 45cm range of the Plaguereapers' Lascannon.

Overall, the change in fire arcs makes them feel slightly more manoeuvrable, because they are less susceptible to getting outflanked.

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