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Vraksian Traitors 1.06

 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:30 am 
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List is live! Going to be building this army staright after Cancon. And malcadors aren't too hard to come by


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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:47 pm 
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Agreed, Malcadors aren't hard to find if you know where to look :whistle

Thanks for getting the list up Mard.

Is there any interest in play testing the Militia and fortifications (or any other changes?) to bring the list into line with the Vraks Campaign? I have collected the army and can do some play tests.

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:08 am 
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I'm really glad to see this list back on the go.
I plan to build an army using this list as the human troops in support of my Iron Warriors (Storm of Iron style).

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:21 pm 
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I think that looking at the list I can see why Steve made the comments he did,

it is basically the steel legion list with access to extra stuff, including int1+ marines, and the superb chaos flyers, it has UBER artillery with reinforced armour which can drop 6BP every turn, tanks which can garrison, several different flavours of MW tank destroyers, it also maintains access to titans

for my money as it stands it's a bit of a 'kitchen-sink' list, which is not neccessarily a bad thing, but does present problems in terms of balance, the more options the list has, the tougher it is to balance, and the less suitable it is for tournament play

I'm a fan of it, but don't see that it needs to be developed for NetEA, it would fit into the context of a well themed supplement much better

my 2 cents

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:48 pm 
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My reply then would be, "awesome-let's figure out how to prune/fix this then!" :)

I do agree though that I'd rather see more and more lists be targeted towards themed supplements and less towards tournament play (though if they work in both then more better awesome happy time!). I want to see more narrative scenario/csampagins being produced.

I however think this list conceptually gives a slightly unique list in that you can have a garrisoned tank force with low tech rabble in tow. I agree there's too much in it. For instance just off the top of my head I'd
-Dump Warlords entirely and maybe even all titans to refocus on the low tech guard aspect (yyes I get that E&C put it in there as a "what-if")
-Remove malcador and minatour formation ability to perform march orders (this is slow and ponderous) which helps balance the list somewhat
-Ditch Manticores and Bombard companies (probably fine at squadron level)
-Take the Armoured Fist Platoon out behind the woodshed
-Alpha Legion Retinue should be shrunk and pay for rhinos. Perhaps replaced with a limited form of infiltrator squad instead (sneaky Cads)

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:51 pm 
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BTW: thanks for spelling out some of those issues Kyuss. Much obliged.

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:25 pm 
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I'd be happy for this list to only exist as a fan/supplement list - I'd be more likely to use it on a custom board with free trenches all over the place than at a tournament anyway!!

This does actually get at what I was asking before though - we don't currently have an "approved - but not for tournament play" level. We may well not need one but would there be any merit in being able to mark a list as no longer being developmental but not marked for tournament play?

Does approved only have any meaning in a tournament context or is there a point where a list just wouldn't give a fair game, tournament or otherwise? Or rather where it would give a fair game, but not necessarily in a tournament?


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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:04 am 
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Alf, the netEA experimental/developmental/approved status is mostly for tournaments, it's basically a rubber stamp that two approved lists will have a balanced and fun game in the gt scenario at a given points level

@Jimmy, if we prune the list, we remove its flavour imo, it matches closely the vraks background so rather than trimming it to fit the netEA mould, I say keep it as it is, use it for friendly and campaign games and TOs can choose to allow/ban it as they wish

If we pare it back, you'll just (more or less) end up with traitor steel legion which really doesnt fit any niche and doesnt scratch the collective itches of the fluffophiles, ie. We compromise and end up pleasing no-one....

I really like the list as it is and would play and collect it if I had the time and money, but changing it to balance things just sucks what makes the list good away....

My opinion of course :)

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:48 am 
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I'd definitely like to see the list balanced for tournament use - I used a Vraks list at a tournament a few years ago.

Options could do with being limited slightly. I'd make the Malcadors core and only have a small support formation of 6 or so Russ.

Garrisoning Malcadors may be OTT powerful and doesn't seem characterful. I'd add 'may not garrison' in the notes of the Maladors and varients - it'd make the list noticeably slow, but this seems appropriate for a defensive siege army.


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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:03 am 
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Based on recent comments from this thread, I threw an army list together based on the current army list. I am not claiming ownership of the Vraks list, but seeing how some people would like to see some changes (myself included), I thought that I would give it a shot. Honestly, I rather like what I came up with - I hope you do as well.

Vraksian Traitors Chaos Army List:

Core Formations:
Regimental HQ Platoon
Infantry Platoon
Malcador Tank Company

Support Formations:
Traitor Militia (use Chaos Cultists from LatD list)
Artillery Squadron (no Manticores?)
Disciples of Xaphan
Heavy Artillery Squadron
Tank Hunter Squadron
0-1 Death Strike Squadron

Formation Upgrades:
Fire Support Squad
Infantry Reinforcements
Tank Squadron
Hellhound Squadron
Griffon Squadron
Ogryn Berserkers
Flak

Vraksian Fortifications: - One Fortified Position may be taken per Vraksian Regimental HQ Platoon and Infantry Platoon.
Fortified Positions (Up to 50cm of trenches and 50cm of razor wire, plus up to 6 gun emplacements or 6 bunkers in any combination.)

Chaos Allies:
Alpha Legion Retinue (0-2?)
Hellblade Fighters
Helltalon Fighter-Bombers
Harbinger Bomber

My thoughts - I placed the Traitor Militia in the Support section, but it could be placed in the Core section based on the sheer numbers involved in the campaign. I thought that the Manticore might (?) be dropped in favor of the more simple Basilisk and Bombard. Leman Russ tanks are available as upgrades only, to reflect the prominent role of the Malcador. I feel that Chimeras should still be made available to the HQ and Disciples formations to reflect them being the best equipped formations. I decided to retain the Death strike squadron because the list doesn't have any ground based War Engines and the Leman Russ Tank Hunter/Valdor are MW and not TK. I left out some very traditional I.G. items like Hydra, Sentinel and Armored Fist formations in order to change the character of the list. This list will be slow, so I'm not sure if we should restrict the Malcadors too much. I have played other slow armies such as the LatD, Genestealer Cult and Feral Orks. Between the intervening terrain and my opponent, grabbing the "Blitz" is very rarely in the cards. If we do put a restriction on the Malcador (which I don't think is needed), it should be "cannot march" OR "cannot Garrison" but not both. The price of the Alpha Legion Retinue is slightly more expensive than the BL Retinue. We could limit them to 0-2 Retinues to avoid the possibility of fielding 3 Retinues in a 3,000 point game or 4 Retinues in a 4,000 point game and so on. I left out Daemons, a larger Chaos Marine presence and Titans because they were not involved until late in the siege and the fact that they are well represented in other lists. I used the Fortifications (as they play a prominent part in the campaign) from the Baran Siegemasters because their notes state that the Baran list can be used to represent a PDF force. The majority of Vraks' trained forces were PDF, so I thought it was a good fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:20 am 
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I like your ideas. I'd be happy to help you playtest it.

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:49 pm 
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I think uberChris's direction for the list is a good one. I'll reiterate my bloated comment from above. When the list was put up on Armyforge (thank you for that, by the way), I was able to build a 9-activation count army, complete with scouts, AAA, and artillery entirely from IG-themed FMs, without 1 chaos unit in there. That, to me, is not a good sign. If I had wanted aircraft, it would've been IG with hellblades. Malcadors, alpha legion retinues (like the 0-1/1000pts, by the way), cheap infantry, trenches, and the odd chaos goody should be the hallmarks of this list. I'd love to see defenders as upgrades to infantry companies - classic WWI-style linebreaker formations could be built with that combo. The stormtrooper-like FM in chimera should be retained in some form because it's unique and backed by fluff. Not sure about the commissar-like unit. (does it have inspiring, or just leader?). Perhaps the Alpha Legion should be the SC FM? They were the puppet masters for the whole thing after all...

I'd go further in suggesting that the malcador chassis should be 2DC WE with 4+ armor save (no RA). Dave had shared some homebrew stats along those lines with me awhile back, so not my original idea. The thing is very big, but strikes me also as being able to survive punishment rather than deflect it. 15cm move, so they'd be slow, and WE prevents garrison. As it stands, the stats are too close to a Russ IMO.

I realize a lot of the IG stuff was in the fluff, but for uniqueness and balance, sticking with low-tech is the way to go. Why do you need the LR destroyer (by all accounts rare and coveted) when you have the malcador whatchamacallit with the big gun?

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:23 pm 
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Well in a perfect universe the LE Destroyer would gave sniper. :)

The hallmark of why this list operate differently imho is the presence of garrisoned malcadors. I think there's something to be said about removing march order from the formation (it's said to have a very underpowered engine for the size of the tank).

The 2dc war engine isn't bad but doesn't really feel right for the unit. In 40k they had structure points more to allow multiple targets. Perhaps the should instead be able to barge 2 units out of the way instead (sort of a DC1 w/e). After all, the tank is specifically stated to be a line breaker but not a war engine (straddling both lines without fully working as well as a purposely built unit).

I'm not sure about 10 unit companies either but have nothing to back that up.

The enforcers are too much commissar by another name. I'd be keen to try out leader on them instead.

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:26 pm 
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Wouldn't a formation of 9 WEs be a pain though, what with them all blocking LOS? Not to mention 18 3+ FF attacks coming at you from a company of Malcador Defenders... I think that's probably why they were statted as they are. I completely understand the thinking but I couldn't imagine playing with it...

Totally agree that the LR variants wouldn't be missed at all though.


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 Post subject: Re: Vraksian Traitors 1.06
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:46 pm 
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I should've mentioned that 10-strong companies would be out if the malcadors were WE. I agree that a 10-WE FM would be unplayable.

I'd envision them coming in 3-strong support FMs or upgrades to core infantry FMs.

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