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BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK

 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:44 am 
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but the change makes the list MORE flexible, it means you can include your terminators, scouts, AND decimators, rather than picking two ouf the three....

in the EUK list, it's not called the 'allies' section, but rather the aircraft, war engines and allies, it encompasses all of them...

in the same way that the warhound had a slight points tweak because it was felt that fielding four of them in a 3k army was overpowered, but individually they aren't a game winner, a slightly different, yet equivlalent approach has been taken here, individually decimators are nasty enough, but when you can field them in a list alonside multiple ferals AND deathwheels it can become overwhelming for most forces who aren't equipped with the tools to deal with so many potent threats.....

this makes the list more flexible at the expense of being able to build VERY strongly 'themed' armies, a positive step in terms of game balance

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:06 pm 
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It does not solve the problem that Decimators are way overpowered for their point costs.

It just forces you to choose between them and other War engines.

Instead of forcing you to choose between them and Terminators/chosen.

It's hiding the problem, not solving it.

And btw, there is still no justification for it to have fearless. It's stats do not show it to be a daemon engine, and CSMs do not have fearless, so why does it have fearless?

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:43 pm 
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I think there may be a case for increasing their points cost, but that's not the issue I'm discussing.... it's how they synergise with the rest of the list.... Warhound titans are very powerful all-round, great mobility, shooting and resilience, as a result they're limited to 1/3 of the points of most army lists, there are good arguments for increasing warhounds to 300 points as they're basically a no brainer for most imperial lists, but they are kept in check by limiting their availability... the same is true of decimators

plus, as has been said, if your group is closed, then use whatever works for you, but these changes have been playtested for a good while now, and are already part of the EUK list which has recieved plenty of play

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:45 pm 
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also, if they really are so super powered that they need a nerf or points change, please play some games, and report back how the decimators won it for you or dominated the game, actions speak very much louder than words.... these changes are not Steve poking in the dark, they are the result of dozens of playtest games from many different groups

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:03 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
It does not solve the problem that Decimators are way overpowered for their point costs.

It just forces you to choose between them and other War engines.

Instead of forcing you to choose between them and Terminators/chosen.

It's hiding the problem, not solving it.

And btw, there is still no justification for it to have fearless. It's stats do not show it to be a daemon engine, and CSMs do not have fearless, so why does it have fearless?

Its 13 months since you commented on this, if you want something interact with development through discussion backed up by playtesting.

That said this is the first you've commented on the decimator being OTT - even your swiss stats don't nerf it. Before you have just complained about the decimator (and also death wheel) moving to the WE section. The DW move was universally popular and needed (7 fast fearless WE armies) and the decimator is too.

All thats changed is the choice is now decimator/DW/Feral/air rather than decimator/chosen/terminators. I reallt think you are making too much of the change which has been very positive in actual play.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:29 pm 
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My first post on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=82&t=22700&start=15 and several others on the same thread, as well the thread titled Swiss Decimator document my agreeing with Decimators being OTT and deserving a nerf.

But thats not the point you are adressing with the adopted change. You were trying to address another concern, which is that BL lists often had too many WEs to your and several other's tastes. You might call this a matter of taste, or a matter of habit, but I actually liked that option with BL and so does my playgroup. The change went through, fine, I can only regret it. But it won't stop me from playing BL, it's not gamebreaking.

However, the issue that the Decimator is OTT (and so is Deathwheel btw) for its points cost is not yet addressed, and I fear that this last change ensures it never will.

Concerning the stat changes that dont solve the problem, I beg to differ, and I would suggest you would try it. If it is still not enough, give the main weapon 2BP MW with IC and let the option be optimal with two decimators instead of one, eventually reducing price for multiples.

In any case, this is just one of the changes that went through, and I find all the others great, especially the daemon changes. It seems people want to convince me that the Decimator change is good option, which is really not necessary. We can simplay agree to disagree on the Decimator change.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:37 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I think there may be a case for increasing their points cost, but that's not the issue I'm discussing.... it's how they synergise with the rest of the list.... Warhound titans are very powerful all-round, great mobility, shooting and resilience, as a result they're limited to 1/3 of the points of most army lists, there are good arguments for increasing warhounds to 300 points as they're basically a no brainer for most imperial lists, but they are kept in check by limiting their availability... the same is true of decimators

plus, as has been said, if your group is closed, then use whatever works for you, but these changes have been playtested for a good while now, and are already part of the EUK list which has recieved plenty of play



Thanks man. If I want to play with my own rules, I can use them. Thanks.

However if I want to play with the Net EA rules and I happen to disagree with a change, I must either change my opinion, or stop using NetEA rules? How about just disagreeing with a change? Can that not just be ok?

Concerning the EUK lists, thats fine, but again, if I wanted to use other rules, I would.

All I am trying to say is that, in my opinion backed up my by my experience in my games, the option chosen for the Decimator in the latest changes is not as good as some of the other options out there that could have remedied the obvious problem that you also have underlined: Decimators are too good a choice for 225 points.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:54 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Thanks man. If I want to play with my own rules, I can use them. Thanks.

However if I want to play with the Net EA rules and I happen to disagree with a change, I must either change my opinion, or stop using NetEA rules? How about just disagreeing with a change? Can that not just be ok?

Concerning the EUK lists, thats fine, but again, if I wanted to use other rules, I would.

All I am trying to say is that, in my opinion backed up my by my experience in my games, the option chosen for the Decimator in the latest changes is not as good as some of the other options out there that could have remedied the obvious problem that you also have underlined: Decimators are too good a choice for 225 points.


no need to take that tone, I've been nothing but polite with you and that was uncalled for

You're welcome to your opinion, but the simple point is that you are not backing any of your assertions up with any kind of data..... play some batreps, SHOW how the decimator is overpowered..... PROVE your point, and if the good people here can provide explanations to help you deal with them if your local meta plays in a certain way, if that is the case, then man up, accept that you don't know everything and figure out how to beat them (not making any assumptions here of course)

I bring up the EUK list as it's the same freaking list Steve is one of the main co-ordinators for EUK and is very keen on synergising the two, ergo as it's been out in the EUK scene for a while, it's recieved plenty of playtesting, I assumed you knew this, and apologise if you weren't aware

Decimators are nasty, in smaller numbers or not backed up with other war engines they're not overpowered, and I see good players beat lists with them often, they require a different form of balance than simple points tweaks.... I'm sorry that you don't like the changes and I guess we can agree to disagree as you say....

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:29 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
no need to take that tone, I've been nothing but polite with you and that was uncalled for



Joys of internet communication... :P

No ill will intended.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:33 am 
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Steve,

Is there a new PDF anywhere mate?

Cheers
Aaron


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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Hey Steve.

Are these changes to be implemented to the Lost & the Damned list as well, and do we have an army champ for that list I could go to for details?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:22 am 
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Is this the right thread to provide feedback on this list?

I love it. I've played both the 2012 / 2013 list, and I like this one a lot more. Making Armored Companies core is a great idea, I like it a lot. Having separate Havok detachments is great.

A couple of changes I would love to see -

225 feels too expensive for two Hell Talons. 150 - 175 feels more appropriate to me.

Some way to take Cult Marines separately from Retinues would be amazing. I realize that might then make the BL list too similar to the Red Corsairs list, but if there was some way to differentiate it - say, unit size or something like that, that would be great. Maybe BL Cult Marine Retinues are 8 stands with a Lord in keeping with the sort of horde feel of the Black Crusade.

As it is, adding 4 stands of Marines and 2 Rhinos onto a formation that already has 8 toops stands and 4 Rhinos, and making it a grand total of 16 models, it's just too unwieldy. We're getting into Ork territory at that size. I never take Cult troops anymore because most of the time they are not in the Chaos Marine Retinue's optimal firing range. I basically feel that cult troops are worthless at the moment.

Overall, though, I really like this list.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:31 am 
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The obvious would be 4 strong formations of each cult in the same slot as chosen (needing a core formation to unlock). I can't imagine it'd unbalance the list too much as they'd have to be more expensive than similar sized chosen.


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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:30 am 
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MikeT wrote:
The obvious would be 4 strong formations of each cult in the same slot as chosen (needing a core formation to unlock). I can't imagine it'd unbalance the list too much as they'd have to be more expensive than similar sized chosen.


Yeah, I would love an option to take cult troops at any size, really. Four, six, eight, I don't care, just as long as I could take them outside of retinues.

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 Post subject: Re: BLACK LEGION CHANGES FOR ARMYBOOK
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:13 am 
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The changes didnt get in the 2014 armybook. Was it not supposed to?


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