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Thousand Sons 6.0

 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:14 pm 
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1430points. That is all eggs in one basket, is it not? And they are slow after the drop. And most probably have trouble against Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, most Orcs….
In this example it does not really matter if the space ship is 150 or 200. So we might leave it to 150, don’t you think?

I would argue that it's basically three or four separate baskets, but regardless: You're right that it's expensive. Still, I dislike that the Devastation is simply better than every other cruiser in the game with a similar price point (and better than many of the 200pt ones, I'd argue). It's probably a futile problem to address here though- it's a deeply entrenched Chaos unit, so trying to 'fix' it here isn't really appropriate.

Now that I know my previous experience with this list had some big flaws I'm not confident in giving further opinions. Hopefully I'll get more chance to face them later.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:43 pm 
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Geep, yes the stats are set in stone, but not the price and restrictions in the list. So yes, you can't change the unit without changing it everywhere but you can absolutely argue (appropriately so I might add) about utility/cost in a list and they are open for modification. Also I should point out that there's no reason a Devestation has to be used either. There's plenty of archaic ship classes that are available such as the Styx or Repulsive that could be used instead. I'm not arguing for or against, just pointing this out.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:10 am 
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Hi Ole..

WargaminAU site is back up..

The changes he want to happen/suggested are in the following link(Below), which was post in April(That's when Roboshadow did it) and my apologies I thought it was after canacon16, it was before cancon16. I have not found any after thoughts on the list after the Tournament....

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=183186 (PFE100 request he come over here and give his thoughts and feed back, so did one other)

Also his list..and he had no great spires(Only human :) )

25. Thousand Sons list 6.0.2.

1. Rubric Fellowship - 555
Sorcerer,
6 Thousand Sons Marines units.
3 x Rhino
3 x Deceiver
Icon Bearer

2. Rubric Fellowship - 305
Sorcerer,
6 Thousand Sons Marines units.
3 x Rhino

3. Silver Tower Company - 360
4 x Silver Tower

4. Silver Tower Company - 360
4 x Silver Tower

5. Thousand Sons Warcoven - 520
Sorcerer
6 x Thousand Sons Terminator

7. Thousand Sons Warcoven - 350
Sorcerer
4 x Thousand Sons Terminator

8. Warp Palace of Tzeentch - 500

So the list is nothing like the one that has spark discussion....

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:00 pm 
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PFE200 wrote:
Hi Ole..

WargaminAU site is back up..

The changes he want to happen/suggested are in the following link(Below), which was post in April(That's when Roboshadow did it) and my apologies I thought it was after canacon16, it was before cancon16. I have not found any after thoughts on the list after the Tournament....

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=183186 (PFE100 request he come over here and give his thoughts and feed back, so did one other)

Also his list..and he had no great spires(Only human :) )

25. Thousand Sons list 6.0.2.

1. Rubric Fellowship - 555
Sorcerer,
6 Thousand Sons Marines units.
3 x Rhino
3 x Deceiver
Icon Bearer

2. Rubric Fellowship - 305
Sorcerer,
6 Thousand Sons Marines units.
3 x Rhino

3. Silver Tower Company - 360
4 x Silver Tower

4. Silver Tower Company - 360
4 x Silver Tower

5. Thousand Sons Warcoven - 520
Sorcerer
6 x Thousand Sons Terminator

7. Thousand Sons Warcoven - 350
Sorcerer
4 x Thousand Sons Terminator

8. Warp Palace of Tzeentch - 500

So the list is nothing like the one that has spark discussion....



Woow! You wake up and there are 5 new battle reports waiting on your front door. That is great. I update the first post already. It is looking stunning this all this reports. Thank you Brent (Oveja Negras) for your input. Your reports are form a older version, so I would love to read what you think about the list 6.1.2. Here or on the aussie forum ( I'm sure i might read it a bit sooner this time).

Back in the list 6.0.2, the one you used, it was hard to build a list with some activations, but I think we managed to get that one right.

Oveja_Negras wrote:
MAGNUS charges and wins the assault! He pauses and wishes his dad could see how he is still a good guy...
;D ;D ;D

On thing that is gaudy, is that you didn’t used many lesser daemons. The Guys here are all about how powerful particular flamers are, and you used nearly none.

The stuff you mentioned is here:
Oveja_Negras wrote:
My Demon Pool was 1 x Greater Demon, 6 x Flamers. Even with the thrall it was difficult to summon the Greater Demon and I think a bigger demon pool would be fun to use.


Back than it was nearly impossible and even if you could managed it it was quite a points sink. Covered that one.

Oveja_Negras wrote:
Rubric marines are tough as nails but without ATSKNF it makes it hard to not be broken. 6 size terminators units would be better but already lacking activations makes it hard. Ahriman's Chosen unit was strong and a good size.

You need have both sides of a coin. The New Rubric Rule makes Marshalling easier.

Oveja_Negras wrote:
The Greater Spire is very fragile and very slow moving too. but it is a cheap activation for me.

That is how it should be, but with the terrain interpretation you down under guys are using even brittler. The gun improvement should even it out a bit.  

Oveja_Negras wrote:
The Warp Palace worked really well but I wonder how it will go without terrain high enought to conceal it from volcano cannons, deathstrikes and other nasty Eldar weapons.


Great to here feedback about the Palace, I still think it is a little overpriced

Oveja_Negras wrote:
General Rules:
- Needs either ATSKNF or the Legion Astartes rule from the Heresy rules. Im leaning more toward the Heresy rule cheers Fattdex

They are VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR FFS.
- Never tried Wraithgate.
- Demons are cool but too hard to summon a Greater Demon. Why do Black Legion get better summoning augments than tzeentch sorcerers? makes no sense.
.


you could be right about that, but that is an issue for the big show.

Oveja_Negras wrote:
Scarab Occult:
- I've read alot of TS fluff and this unit doesnt exist. Drop this unit and give the Rubric Marines access to a Demon Prince..


It is just a name, I believe Neal came up with, to get a formation of sorcceres. Not being able to field a SC in an Rubric Formation is a list weakness that is intent.

Oveja_Negras wrote:
Rubric Marines:
- Great unit. the core and back bone.
- Give access to Demon prince AND a Sorcerer per two stands.
- Deceivers and Dreadnoughts need infiltrate.


Giving a sorcerer per two stands as a possible upgrade would mean some serious points upgrade. But as long as you pay for it. I never was in that need. You could summon daemons instead, even cheaper.

Oveja_Negras wrote:
Arimans Chosen:
- Good unit
- Leader should be a Sup Cmd at the same points cost.


Great to hear that they are a good unit.

Oveja_Negras wrote:
Silver Towers:
- These are amazing and points costed correctly. They are expensive but worth it.
- Unit size should be 3-9 (Either a big hard to break unit, or small for extra activations)


We done a similar thing, what do you think?

Oveja_Negras wrote:
Sekhmet Disc Riders
- Why is this the only TS sacred number unit? nine skimmers that can only FF for 325 points??? What a joke.
- Make them 4-6 like the Silver Towers.


Good point never thought about that one. What does the community think about it?

Oveja_Negras wrote:
Neophyte Class:
- Pfft didnt even bother trying these even for funz. Drop them.


We added scout and you could fan them out now, to cover some table. Don’t look to much in Gregs reports, he always leaves them in a huddle and rarely uses scout.

Thank you very much.

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:38 pm 
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Ole wrote:
We added scout and you could fan them out now, to cover some table. Don’t look to much in Gregs reports, he always leaves them in a huddle and rarely uses scout.
Thank you very much.

Ole


Ok to be clear I have used TS once out of the 19 games played by the group and Roboshadow is the main player of T/S in the group.. :) ..So he leaves them huddle and rarely uses as scouts.. :)

All I have done is write the 19 battle reports for the T/S.. :) ..So in fact I will write all the Batreps for the group this year, looking like 150 and I have played about 144 games roughly..

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:21 pm 
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PFE200 wrote:
Ole wrote:
We added scout and you could fan them out now, to cover some table. Don’t look to much in Gregs reports, he always leaves them in a huddle and rarely uses scout.
Thank you very much.

Ole


Ok to be clear I have used TS once out of the 19 games played by the group and Roboshadow is the main player of T/S in the group.. :) ..So he leaves them huddle and rarely uses as scouts.. :)

All I have done is write the 19 battle reports for the T/S.. :) ..So in fact I will write all the Batreps for the group this year, looking like 150 and I have played about 144 games roughly..


Ah come on, I've must have mist a smilie there. Don't be upset.

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:35 am 
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Ole wrote:

Ah come on, I've must have mist a smilie there. Don't be upset.

Ole



:) :) :) ;)

I had Roboshadow going by text "Did you know that i have played all the T/S games"...reply "Like BS".. ;D ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:28 pm 
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Greg,

would you contact this Brent guy and ask him if he might write down his opinion about the 6.1.2 list. I would love to read about it.

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:03 am 
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Sent PM to him through WargamingAU for you....

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:03 pm 
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Great Year for the Thousand Sons, Thank you

It is fun working on a list that has this much interest.

So let us look at what we have done:

    - We gave the Neophytes a job and it works quite nice.
    - We had a healthy discussion about the pricing of the Rubric Fellowship and 300 is solid.
    - The new Rubric Rule is much better then the old one, I’ll be surprised if it won’t work out.
    - The Terminators have a fluffy stat line and a decent price.
    - Daemon Summoning is now much easier and the greater Daemon wasn’t even possible before.
    - Putting the Deceiver in a formation of it’s own will see them some action. You can use it or not. Your Choice.
    - Making the Bomber a twin Bomber makes it more effective then a single one, with the possibility of being shoot.
    - Dropping the Strategy rating to 4 is a sensible one, but will remove the cheese smell this list likes to get a little bit.

    - We will dropping the deamoinc focus and the Champion in the greater spire und the warp place.
    - In terms of mobility was my first solution dropping the ahrimans chosen formation and keeping the droppods. After some privat discussion We are going to use it the other way round.
    - Sekhmet Disc Riders are from now on 4 for 175 up to 9 for additional 35 points

The List 6.2 is going to be the list for 2017. I strongly believe there is not much missing. Happy Gaming every one.
Attachment:
Thousand_Sons_Army_List_6.2.pdf [96.27 KiB]
Downloaded 68 times


I'll ask Simon to upload the changes to Armyforge.

And as always leave comments below

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Just noticed a mistake in the Champion Statline. He doesn't use the Daemon Artifact because he can only have one or the other. Will correct that one next time.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:49 pm 
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You've now changed it so that there's no space ships at all? That's an interesting one.

The profiles for the spaceships and drop pods are still in the summary- you may want to remove them to avoid confusion (unless they're not gone and I'm blind?).


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Geep wrote:
You've now changed it so that there's no space ships at all? That's an interesting one.

The profiles for the spaceships and drop pods are still in the summary- you may want to remove them to avoid confusion (unless they're not gone and I'm blind?).


No that was a misstake and I have deleted them already, but had no chance replace it yet.

I felt to choose between alter the dread claw stuff till it suits or use the Ahrimans Choosen and since the first one is a tough one, I decided to delete them.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:38 pm 
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When I checked the GW site and saw all the new Tzeentch stuff, I was definitely excited to see if anything new had been incorporated. Not too shabby, guys.

I have a few questions and comments.

Neophytes - Is 9 scouts for 175 not potentially abusive? I know they don't have range but it's 9 scouts. That can block a lot of area and take a fair amount of damage before breaking.

Rubric rule - I like the addition of the Marshall bonus. The lack of movement in Withdrawal was supposed to help stop some of the screwball games that retreating Fearless units can get into. Has that not been a problem?

Thralls - I'm a little disappointed they are gone. If they've gone for good, there's a reference to them in the Fickle rule.

I don't understand the comments about summoning and not being able to pull a GD. With 3 Thralls, you'd have 5d3, which gives 90-95% chance to summon a Lord of change. A champion with +2d3 is only 61.7% per attempt. The thralls aren't as automatic as the Champion sacrifice but Tzeentch is Fickle.

That said, 3 Thralls is definitely not as strong as a Champion in any way except that you could sac them all in an assault and get more attacks out of them than out of a Champion. Maybe they were just overpriced and should have been 15 points, so 3 would come in just under the Champion cost.

Edit: It just occurred to me that a nice bonus for the Thralls over the Champion is that the Champion sac removes the unit. Thralls don't.

Tzaangors - These seem to be the major new addition to the TS in 40K. They fill the same "cheap bulk" kind of role as the Neophytes do in this list. They also offset the FF focus with CC, much like the Kroot in the Tau army. Any thoughts on pulling the Neophytes and/or adding a Tzaangor Warherd formation?


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:12 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
When I checked the GW site and saw all the new Tzeentch stuff, I was definitely excited to see if anything new had been incorporated. Not too shabby, guys.


Thank you very much, coming form you means a lot.

nealhunt wrote:
I have a few questions and comments.

Neophytes - Is 9 scouts for 175 not potentially abusive? I know they don't have range but it's 9 scouts. That can block a lot of area and take a fair amount of damage before breaking.


I know what you mean, it most certainly looks like it. And yes you can stretch them pretty far over the table, but they are that vulnerable that it does not take long to make them move again.

nealhunt wrote:
Rubric rule - I like the addition of the Marshall bonus. The lack of movement in Withdrawal was supposed to help stop some of the screwball games that retreating Fearless units can get into. Has that not been a problem?

The Rubric rule had very little logic, I made a poll about it a while back and wrote about it there.
I never experienced that problem but maybe it is just me.

nealhunt wrote:
Thralls - I'm a little disappointed they are gone. If they've gone for good, there's a reference to them in the Fickle rule.

I don't understand the comments about summoning and not being able to pull a GD. With 3 Thralls, you'd have 5d3, which gives 90-95% chance to summon a Lord of change. A champion with +2d3 is only 61.7% per attempt. The thralls aren't as automatic as the Champion sacrifice but Tzeentch is Fickle.

That said, 3 Thralls is definitely not as strong as a Champion in any way except that you could sac them all in an assault and get more attacks out of them than out of a Champion. Maybe they were just overpriced and should have been 15 points, so 3 would come in just under the Champion cost.


The price was one point and the other was that I liked to have less special stuff.

nealhunt wrote:
Edit: It just occurred to me that a nice bonus for the Thralls over the Champion is that the Champion sac removes the unit. Thralls don't.

The champion has just Augmented Summoning (+2D3) the sacrifice stuff is not in the list because of the fluff.
nealhunt wrote:
Tzaangors - These seem to be the major new addition to the TS in 40K. They fill the same "cheap bulk" kind of role as the Neophytes do in this list. They also offset the FF focus with CC, much like the Kroot in the Tau army. Any thoughts on pulling the Neophytes and/or adding a Tzaangor Warherd formation?


Thank you that you weren’t asking for the assault cannons and flames stuff. I have ignored all of the new 40k stuff not because I don’t like them but when I took the list over it looked like helping the list just over the line. Right now it is changed again pretty much form dobby’s last list.

Thank you for your comments.

Ole

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