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Thousand Sons 6.0

 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:01 am 
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Also: when the Rubric rule was dropped, why was it dropped in its entirety?
I can see why the inability to march is awkward and easily circumvented, background wise, by transports- but what about the single-move when broken?
To me this seems an important mitigator to the main problem I have with this list: That being that even a basic unit of 6 models is extremely hard to wipe out entirely, and even a single broken stand has a good chance of rallying, acting first, summoning daemons and launching an engage action that it is almost impossible to beat (have nothing but the daemons able to take damage).
If restricted to a single move when broken then the opponent can keep the pressure on, and possibly limit the space for daemon summoning.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:26 am 
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Hi Geep thanks a lot for you thoughts about it. I will write an answer tonight.

You have some good pints there and I'm looking forward to discuss them.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:52 pm 
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Geep has a quite accurate assessment. I've done the same thing with the Sautekh list and people's complaints about the monoliths.
Ponderous = only a single withdraw move when broken.

On top of Geep comments you may want to think about dropping the waygate as well. If the army is supposed to have a mobility impediment but they have drop pods and gates. That doesn't sound very limiting. Look at what IJWwartrader has done with the deathguard list. It has similar features to this, good armour (but not nearly as good as TS) fearless, no shooting on base formations and good assault ability but has no drop pods has no march move or portals and still functions reasonably well.

I'm not saying you need to impose the same limitations as that but the list needs some balancing factors that it seems to be severely lacking at the moment. I know the infantry have no shooting ability and that is one but not a very big one considering how powerful they are in assaults. The RA gives them considerable advantage for coming out on top in combat resolution not to mention the expendable daemons with FF EA +1 on top of that. The TS player would much rather assault than shoot when ever possible anyways.

Like other people have mentioned it will be hard to change the base stats (and I'm not even saying you need to do that). Personally I've never played with or against the list so I may not be the best person to make comments on how to change it for the better (I don't know the fluff very well either).

Something that just popped to mind though. Maybe instead of going the ponderous route for limiting movement you go a different way and take away their counter charge and/or consolidation (post combat win) move. Now that would be different, interesting and limiting. Kind of like a reverse of the eldar awesomeness.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:05 pm 
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Geep wrote:
I was recently comparing this list to the EpicUK one, and am curious about the differences between the Sorceror/ Cabal in the two lists. With no change in points the Sorceror seems to have had a very nice upgrade, both with the EA +1 MW mentioned above, and also through gaining RA (which the Cabal of Sorcerors replaces with an invulnerable save- usually much worse). They NetEA Sorceror doesn't automatically gain Daemonic Pact as the Cabal does, but I still see this as a significant improvement.


You are right about that point and even more since in the uk list you can kill the daemonic pact stand. In this list you can’t. If we rise the price for the Rubric Fellowship from 275 to 300 we should be fine. That reduces the possibility of adding daemons as well. I thought about that the other day as well just for dropping the rubric rule. But about that later more.

Geep wrote:
Also, although I know this is a generic Chaos unit, but why is the Devastation Cruiser as cheap as it is?
At 150pts it is shoulder to shoulder with the Lunar Cruiser, which has no transport capacity, the Kill Kroozer, which has no transport and a single variable blast shot, the Wraith Ship which has no transport capacity and must choose between a blast or pin-point attack, and the Dark Eldar Corsair which has a weaker blast and must choose between the pin-point attack and transport.
The Chaos player does have to pay for the Dreadclaws or Thunderhawks, but so does every other faction (aside from Space Marines, who sacrifice their Rhinos).

I know that units are costed according to the list they're in, and therefore some will argue I can't compare the Devastation to other Spacecraft, but the ability to drop 20 stands' worth of 4+ RA troops, at a strat rating of 5 and able to summon daemons is really as good as it gets.


That is a really good one. Never thought about that. Rising the price of the Space Crafts 50points is a good start and we will see where that one goes.

Geep wrote:
Also: when the Rubric rule was dropped, why was it dropped in its entirety?
I can see why the inability to march is awkward and easily circumvented, background wise, by transports- but what about the single-move when broken?
To me this seems an important mitigator to the main problem I have with this list: That being that even a basic unit of 6 models is extremely hard to wipe out entirely, and even a single broken stand has a good chance of rallying, acting first, summoning daemons and launching an engage action that it is almost impossible to beat (have nothing but the daemons able to take damage).
If restricted to a single move when broken then the opponent can keep the pressure on, and possibly limit the space for daemon summoning.


atension wrote:
Geep has a quite accurate assessment. I've done the same thing with the Sautekh list and people's complaints about the monoliths.
Ponderous = only a single withdraw move when broken.


I don’t thing that that would be necessary since I have just read the nurgle rule. Haven’t see it earlier. I quit like the hole rule and would like to copy it. Using the same spacial rule is always a good thing. Targeting the hole army reduces the problem I had withe the old rubric rule in the first place.

atension wrote:
On top of Geep comments you may want to think about dropping the waygate as well. If the army is supposed to have a mobility impediment but they have drop pods and gates. That doesn't sound very limiting. Look at what IJWwartrader has done with the deathguard list. It has similar features to this, good armour (but not nearly as good as TS) fearless, no shooting on base formations and good assault ability but has no drop pods has no march move or portals and still functions reasonably well..


The warth gate is not a problem, it is much more fluff than useful. If we would get a second one, that would to the trick but just one, that the enemy places is nearly useless.

atension wrote:
I'm not saying you need to impose the same limitations as that but the list needs some balancing factors that it seems to be severely lacking at the moment. I know the infantry have no shooting ability and that is one but not a very big one considering how powerful they are in assaults. The RA gives them considerable advantage for coming out on top in combat resolution not to mention the expendable daemons with FF EA +1 on top of that. The TS player would much rather assault than shoot when ever possible anyways.


One point you haven’t mentioned is the Strategy rating of 5. That again is one thing I have been inherited. And after checking the other approved lists it would be a good point to reduce the hole stuff to 4. If even old eldrad ulthran has a 4….

List of suggested Changes:

- Strategy rating drops to 4.
- Space crafts are going up 50points to 200 (Devastation Class) and 300 points (Despoiler Class)
- New Rubric Rule: Thousand Sons are noted for their slow, ponderous and methodical advance. To represent this no units can March. All formations in the army receive a +1 modifier to their action test roll when attempting a Marshal action.
- Rubric Fellowship goes up to 300points.
- Thousand Sons Warcoven goes up to 400points and +100 for each up to 6.
- Ahrimanns Chosen leaves the list.

That changes should pull the teeth quite a lot. Rising up the points does not just justify the abilities but reduces the amount of daemons in the list.

What do you thing.

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:34 am 
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mhmm.. so devastation class cruiser is 150pts for black legion but should go up to 200pts in the ts list. I understand the issue with the drop, but i can take a black legion retinue with 4 cult marines of thousand sons and demonic pact for 450pts. giving it a base unit count of 12(!) with the abilty of summoning demons and none of the other impairing rubrics have. and then of course all the hyper agressive we's that bl has but ts lack. this seems at odds to me. but let's discuss.

also what i don't quite get is how you use the expendable rule for demons here. is there a difference to other chaos list or why do I read several posts as demons being as expendable as ork grots? they are not. lost demon do count for combat resolution. whereas grots do not. or do i get something wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:34 am 
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Hi Ole

yea just spoke to pfe about the game realizing that we both made a mistake knights game, daemon do count for engagement . PFE said that Geep had a copy of the army list for his their game as well. Please forgive us for we use on average 8+ different list in a month roughly as a group.

want to chat about the suggested changes:

Strategy rating drops to 4.
space crafts going up by 50pts

I fine with the strategy rating being drop but if you going to do that leave the space ships points as it is, this bring it in line with the other chaos list (mainly the Black legion, EC) as indicate by graf_spee.

the New rubic rule:
I'm happy with the new rule, as to me it's sound like a simple necron rule which is fine i know that works.

rubic fellowship:
I'm happy to have 300pts all this means is that Tk son will have lower activation count which will put them at a disadvantage at tournaments where activation counts reign supreme here in Australia. since the list went to cancon16 and if memory serve me, it had about 8 to 9 activation.

warcoven:
I'm fine this change as well, this makes it like UK list, same the rubic fellow on activation.

Ahrimanns chosen:
interesting idea, will have better think about this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:20 am 
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Quote:
mhmm.. so devastation class cruiser is 150pts for black legion but should go up to 200pts in the ts list. I understand the issue with the drop, but i can take a black legion retinue with 4 cult marines of thousand sons and demonic pact for 450pts. giving it a base unit count of 12(!) with the abilty of summoning demons and none of the other impairing rubrics have. and then of course all the hyper agressive we's that bl has but ts lack. this seems at odds to me. but let's discuss.

I question why the Devastation is only 150pts in the Black Legion List- or any Chaos list- when it is clearly so much better than every other Spaceship. Regardless, there's a big difference in the units they can drop- Black Legion can get a lot of Fearless cult marines, but they're always attached to a relative weak point- the generic Chaos Marines. Also, as you point out, that's 12 bases of models to have 4 ultra-tough Fearless models- Only one such formation can drop from a Devastation. In the TS list I can drop 18 bases from the Dev, as 3 units, and every single stand is hard as a rock.

Quote:
yea just spoke to pfe about the game realizing that we both made a mistake knights game, daemon do count for engagement .

That does make a massive difference!

Quote:
That changes should pull the teeth quite a lot.

That may be pulling the teeth a little too much, but I guess it should still be playtested to see. I do kind of like Ahriman's Chosen, as although they are extremely powerful they do add some variation to a list that's otherwise quite repetitive (a problem with all special focus lists).
For the Strat rating, a 5 isn't unreasonable given that they're space marines. I don't really get why strat ratings are what they are (eg. Eldar are rarely defensive, especially Biel Tan), but it's quite solidly set for most races.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:23 am 
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I have another game tomorrow night, I wont be testing the above changes, yet..Since I want to see how the list goes, when the daemons get used right and I gather my next opponent will maximizes his strengths...

1) Using cross fire
2) His scouts
3) Long range shooting and shooting in general(Over watch)
4) Activation count...14 all up and 13 of those on the table..I have 7 on table if I teleport turn 1..
5) His speed..

So should be a interesting fight..... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:31 am 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
mhmm.. so devastation class cruiser is 150pts for black legion but should go up to 200pts in the ts list. I understand the issue with the drop, but i can take a black legion retinue with 4 cult marines of thousand sons and demonic pact for 450pts. giving it a base unit count of 12(!) with the abilty of summoning demons and none of the other impairing rubrics have. and then of course all the hyper agressive we's that bl has but ts lack. this seems at odds to me. but let's discuss.


thanks for the response. There is no right or wrong about that point. And most probably it is something to discuss in gerneral.

Graf_Spee wrote:
also what i don't quite get is how you use the expendable rule for demons here. is there a difference to other chaos list or why do I read several posts as demons being as expendable as ork grots? they are not. lost demon do count for combat resolution. whereas grots do not. or do i get something wrong?


No you are quite right about that point. Since it is not the expendable rule but the sentence after that, that makes a grot to a grot
„Formations that include at least one Ork unit don’t count Grot units that are lost in an assault when working out who has won the combat.“

Roboshadow wrote:
Hi Ole

yea just spoke to pfe about the game realizing that we both made a mistake knights game, daemon do count for engagement . PFE said that Geep had a copy of the army list for his their game as well. Please forgive us for we use on average 8+ different list in a month roughly as a group.


Don’t worry about it.

Roboshadow wrote:
want to chat about the suggested changes:

Strategy rating drops to 4.
space crafts going up by 50pts

I fine with the strategy rating being drop but if you going to do that leave the space ships points as it is, this bring it in line with the other chaos list (mainly the Black legion, EC) as indicate by graf_spee.


As I wrote above the space ship might be a bit over the top, but lets see.

Roboshadow wrote:
the New rubic rule:
I'm happy with the new rule, as to me it's sound like a simple necron rule which is fine i know that works.


Great you like it. Then so should other.

Roboshadow wrote:
rubic fellowship:
I'm happy to have 300pts all this means is that Tk son will have lower activation count which will put them at a disadvantage at tournaments where activation counts reign supreme here in Australia. since the list went to cancon16 and if memory serve me, it had about 8 to 9 activation.


You took the list to cancon16? You didn’t tell me about it. How did the crowed respond? Like: Oh look the total cheese List?
It is not much about activation but far more about daemons.

You still can but in a list like:
Incompertus, 2840 POINTS (+150 Points upgrade)
Thousand Sons (6.1.2)
==================================================
RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [355]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer, 3 Rhino

RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [355]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer, 3 Rhino

RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [325]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Icon Bearer, Daemonic Pact

NEOPHYTE CLASS [175]
One Sorcerer, 9 Neophyte units

THOUSAND SONS ARMOR [225]
3 Predator, Land Raider

SILVER TOWER COMPANY [325]
4 Silver Tower

THOUSAND SONS WARCOVEN [450]
Sorcerer, 4 Thousand Sons Terminator, Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer, Champion of Tzeentch

GREATER SPIRES OF TZEENTCH [200]
Greater Spire of Tzeentch

DOOMWING FIGHTERS [150]
3 Doomwing Fighters

FIRELORD BOMBERS [250]
2 Firelord Bombers

THOUSAND SONS DAEMON POOL [30]
2 Lesser Daemons (Horror, Screamer, Flamer and Daemonic Beast units)


Roboshadow wrote:
warcoven:
I'm fine this change as well, this makes it like UK list, same the rubic fellow on activation.


Yeah I guess there is no more to write about the terminators.
Roboshadow wrote:
Ahrimanns chosen:
interesting idea, will have better think about this one.


Yeah me to. Lets see If me miss them.

Geep wrote:
Quote:
mhmm.. so devastation class cruiser is 150pts for black legion but should go up to 200pts in the ts list. I understand the issue with the drop, but i can take a black legion retinue with 4 cult marines of thousand sons and demonic pact for 450pts. giving it a base unit count of 12(!) with the abilty of summoning demons and none of the other impairing rubrics have. and then of course all the hyper agressive we's that bl has but ts lack. this seems at odds to me. but let's discuss.

I question why the Devastation is only 150pts in the Black Legion List- or any Chaos list- when it is clearly so much better than every other Spaceship. Regardless, there's a big difference in the units they can drop- Black Legion can get a lot of Fearless cult marines, but they're always attached to a relative weak point- the generic Chaos Marines. Also, as you point out, that's 12 bases of models to have 4 ultra-tough Fearless models- Only one such formation can drop from a Devastation. In the TS list I can drop 18 bases from the Dev, as 3 units, and every single stand is hard as a rock.


Dropping 18units is now:

RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [380]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer, 6 Dreadclaw

RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [380]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer, 6 Dreadclaw

RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [380]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Icon Bearer, Daemonic Pact, 6 Dreadclaw

DEVASTATION CLASS CRUISER [200]

THOUSAND SONS DAEMON POOL [90]
6 Lesser Daemons (Horror, Screamer, Flamer and Daemonic Beast units)

1430points. That is all eggs in one basket, is it not? And they are slow after the drop. And most probably have trouble against Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, most Orcs….
In this example it does not really matter if the space ship is 150 or 200. So we might leave it to 150, don’t you think?

Geep wrote:
Quote:
That changes should pull the teeth quite a lot.

That may be pulling the teeth a little too much, but I guess it should still be playtested to see. I do kind of like Ahriman's Chosen, as although they are extremely powerful they do add some variation to a list that's otherwise quite repetitive (a problem with all special focus lists).
For the Strat rating, a 5 isn't unreasonable given that they're space marines. I don't really get why strat ratings are what they are (eg. Eldar are rarely defensive, especially Biel Tan), but it's quite solidly set for most races.


Yepp but they are on the darker side of space marines. One point people have with this list is, it is very strong in theory hammer. But when you start putting a gang together you struggle with activation, combined arms and the stuff you like so much in list building. So leaving it to 4 is mainly to reason the theory hammer guys.

PFE200 wrote:
I have another game tomorrow night, I wont be testing the above changes, yet..Since I want to see how the list goes, when the daemons get used right and I gather my next opponent will maximizes his strengths...

1) Using cross fire
2) His scouts
3) Long range shooting and shooting in general(Over watch)
4) Activation count...14 all up and 13 of those on the table..I have 7 on table if I teleport turn 1..
5) His speed..

So should be a interesting fight..... :D

Good Idea. As allways looking forward to read it and see how it goes.

I played a game last week that I recorded. Might get it in the internet in the next couple of days. I have a game next monday that I will record against orcs in wiche I will take the old drop list for a spin.

Leave your comments

Cheers

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:15 am 
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Hi Ole...

No Roboshadow didn't take it to cacon16, I can't remember person name who did take it..But he did write at great lengths the changes he would have done to the list and currently War-gaming Au site is down, so cant have a look..Roboshadow put the links into this thread early, since i requested he do that and also requested the person to jump on here and give his feedback(Which he didn't do)...I do remember he came in at 10 or 12th spot out of 28 people..I also believe it was his first epic comp..I knew he took, rubric fellowships, terminators, warpplace and great spires..I'm sure silver towers..

I look forward to reading the report :) it always nice to read someone else report..

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:46 pm 
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PFE200 wrote:
Hi Ole...

No Roboshadow didn't take it to cacon16, I can't remember person name who did take it..But he did write at great lengths the changes he would have done to the list and currently War-gaming Au site is down, so cant have a look.


Oh man, we can only discuss changes that we know of, can’t we? Can people form now on just speak there mind. It is in all our interests do get this list done.

PFE200 wrote:
Roboshadow put the links into this thread early, since i requested he do that and also requested the person to jump on here and give his feedback(Which he didn't do)


No sadly roboshadow did not. And the Wargaming australia site is down. Does someone know for how long? The Issues he might have with the list are most probably the ones we are tackling right now.

PFE200 wrote:
...I do remember he came in at 10 or 12th spot out of 28 people..I also believe it was his first epic comp..I knew he took, rubric fellowships, terminators, warpplace and great spires..I'm sure silver towers..


The midfield of a tournament is usually a dense place. And the warp palace is a formation that is rather special. Like not sure worth the points.

PFE200 wrote:
I look forward to reading the report :) it always nice to read someone else report..


You are welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Hi Ole..

He did put the links in first page of this thread..second last entry on the page.. :)

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=30250

and below for your connivance.

Roboshadow wrote:
Hi Ole,

Sorry but Tuesday night games are random draw..so yeah we turn up with want ever we want and don't know want the other is taking..make for some fun games, but yeah it doesn't help with testing..

We planing on doing a game Tuesday night and it will be against approved list..to test out some of your concerns... :) ;)

Some thing that should have been done a couple months ago, but i see the person has not left his feed back from the games he played last year or the 6 games he did at cancon 2016..So I have included the links here for you to read..They are in newest to oldest order(So start with last link and work up)

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=183186 (PFE100 request he come over here and give his thoughts and feed back, so did one other)

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=182730

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=182776

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=182635

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=182565


I can tell you now, he didn't drop the rubric fellowship in and didn't use a spaceship.. he use teleporting..terminators..etc..want I mention in my above post..I'm pretty sure he took a warp palace(Yes I maybe wrong)....I read he practice reports before the tournament and the report after the tournament.. I explain that he should talk to you since you are the sub-ac and that you were approachable and pretty fair..

The warp palace needs more testing, but my gut feeling is that it's over price, by not sure by how much.So more outing, to see...

The wargamingAU site will be down till they fix the issue at hand..So when it back up I will let you know.So that you can read want was put in the report and read the Batreps that the guy did.. :)

As for speaking our mind well....I think you find that Roboshadow and me have done that, but at the same time you with respect..which is only fair... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:30 pm 
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PFE200 wrote:
Hi Ole..

He did put the links in first page of this thread..second last entry on the page.. :)

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=30250

and below for your connivance.

Roboshadow wrote:
Hi Ole,

Sorry but Tuesday night games are random draw..so yeah we turn up with want ever we want and don't know want the other is taking..make for some fun games, but yeah it doesn't help with testing..

We planing on doing a game Tuesday night and it will be against approved list..to test out some of your concerns... :) ;)

Some thing that should have been done a couple months ago, but i see the person has not left his feed back from the games he played last year or the 6 games he did at cancon 2016..So I have included the links here for you to read..They are in newest to oldest order(So start with last link and work up)

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=183186 (PFE100 request he come over here and give his thoughts and feed back, so did one other)

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=182730

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=182776

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=182635

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... pic=182565


I can tell you now, he didn't drop the rubric fellowship in and didn't use a spaceship.. he use teleporting..terminators..etc..want I mention in my above post..I'm pretty sure he took a warp palace(Yes I maybe wrong)....I read he practice reports before the tournament and the report after the tournament.. I explain that he should talk to you since you are the sub-ac and that you were approachable and pretty fair..

The warp palace needs more testing, but my gut feeling is that it's over price, by not sure by how much.So more outing, to see...

The wargamingAU site will be down till they fix the issue at hand..So when it back up I will let you know.So that you can read want was put in the report and read the Batreps that the guy did.. :)

As for speaking our mind well....I think you find that Roboshadow and me have done that, but at the same time you with respect..which is only fair... ;)


Yes of course you did and the other ones in this threat as well. No worries. Looking forward to the lost links.

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:37 pm 
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Damn. Most of the pics I took are blurry. Have to do a rematch. So no report.

Will do one next monday.

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:27 pm 
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Damm, was looking forward to it..

Well my game was not a go, due to family turning up..It will be a week or two before it can be done..Sorry..

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