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[Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.8

 Post subject: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.8
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Hi all,

I've had a chat with Caz and madd0ct0r and will henceforth take the lead on the development of the Chaos Titan Legion list. The vision I have for the list is to re-use quite a few special rules, units and equipments from other chaos lists (since I and my group* almost exclusively play Epic-UK lists I'm going to use their versions of these), while adding a few of my own.

Essentially, I'd like the list to play as an "evil twin" of the AMTL. Both for fluff reasons (that's what they are) and because it's a proven template. The weapons will overall be less powerful (especially in the range department), but this will be balanced by other improvements and a greater diversity of playstyles. Looking at incorporating lesser daemons into the list if this can be done in a way that's not totally broken. Perhaps daemon beasts as well. Considering greater daemons too, but probably only in the form of possessed titans. The "Animosity" rule from Lost and the Damned is virtually certain to be included.

Really looking forward to working on this list as I've been playing Chaos (Warriors, Daemons, Dwarfs) in WFB and Epic (Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Lost & Damned) for over 10 years.

Will try and get a pdf into this thread before the end of January.

*We're based in Stockholm, Sweden btw.


Update 28/1 2017: Version 1.0

Alright! So the first version is now up and can be accessed below. No quick-sheet for just yet, but I'll make that fairly soon.

Too tired to say too much about it right now, but it needs mentioning that it hasn't been through any playtesting. On the other hand, much of it is built on previous efforts, so there's not all that much innovation going on...

Except for how lesser daemons are handled perhaps. Thats pretty new.

Take a look!


Update 30/1 2017: Version 1.1

Some minor tweaks and changes to the list, primarily to balance between factions and between different weapons. Thanks to IJW Wartrader for lots of great input.

Hopefully there will be more reason to play Chaos Undivided now. Still haven't playtested it, but I plan to pester my playing group so that I can get a game or two in the near future.


Update 31/1 2017: Version 1.2

New update, and it's a bit experimental. Apart from some minor tweaks and clarifications, I've also made the Knights section of the army a lot more complex/nuanced. Maybe too much! So if you: like it/don't like it/*really* don't like it, you're welcome to say so.

Got a playtest coming up on friday, so we'll see how that goes.


Update 1/2 2017: Version 1.25

Small update. Some minor edits, and have scrapped the Heretek Temple and replaced it with another weapon. The list now has 3 AA options (flyers, Undivided Chaos Knight and a slightly altered Heretek Shrine) which is probably enough.


Update 2/2 2017: Version 1.26

Yet another minor update. Messed around with the Chaos Knights a bit, and fixed some typos. Tomorrow is playtest day, will start off with trying a pure Slaanesh build and see how that goes.


Update 3/2 2017: Version 1.275

Had another look at the Slaanesh Knights and added the Hell-Knight. Minor edits.


Update 8/2 2017: Version 1.3

Lots of updates and edits in this one, and one or two experiments.

An incomplete change list: Added the Harbringer bomber, (edit: and also raised the Chaos Navy points-share-cap to 1/4 instead of 1/6) tweaked costs to Defilers and Chaos Knights (the latter felt too cheap at 300 points with fearless). Changed how the Chaos Emperor titan can be equipped, tweaked its hardpoints, and gave it some fixed armament for a sense of personality.

Renamed the upgrade Chosen of Chaos to Eye of the Gods and made it available to all factions. While this makes it easier to go all-Reavers and skip the Warlord, you still don't get a Supreme Commander. This obviously means no re-roll, and less obviously (but perhaps more importantly) that one can't achieve the conditions for Unity of Command.

Lots of titan weapon changes, especially to the single shot missiles (which are a real challenge to get right). The much too crap Beam of Pleasure is no more, and have been replaced with the Beam of Ecstasy (AKA Beam of Pleasure set to 11). The Heretek shrine has lost its fire fight attacks, and the perhaps-too-obvious Void Head can now be taken by all titans *but* also gives a -1 to-hit penalty in fire fight.


Update 10/2 2017: Version 1.31

Minor update with some tweaks and changes, the biggest of which is probably the new name: "Traitor Titan Legions". As far as I can tell this is the most correct designation fluffwise.

The Cannon of Chaos is gone and has been replaced with a "Chaos Undivided Only" Plasma Incinerator. The Havoc Warp and Vortex Missiles have been buffed somewhat, and now have 3 missiles each, just like the ordinary Barrage version. The Havoc Warp Missile is once more "Indirect". Will be really interesting to playtest these quite unique and very weird single-shot weapons.

The Harbringer now costs 400 points, and even then it's probably still not worth taking (except I've converted one now, so I'll probably bring it in my next game.) Perhaps when playing for 4000 it get's more attractive. The Chaos Emperor titan's Heretek Temple is now a buffed version of the Heretek shrine. A bit worried that people will go overboard with AA on it, but maybe that's not really a problem.


Update 18/2 2017: Version 1.32

Biggish update with tweaks to the Chaos Emperor titan and its different versions. The Chaos Undivided, Nurgle and Slaanesh version now have better close combat (3+) and worse fire fight (5+). The Khorne version has 2+ CC and the Tzeentch version CC 5+ and FF 4+. All versions have 2 more battle cannons and slighty smaller transport capacity. They also now have better (?) names.

The Havoc Warp missiles are now nerfed to 3 x TK(D2) instead of (D3) out of concerns that it previously had a bit too much potential for turn 1 decapitation strikes (also think it fits better thematically). My regular opponent thinks that it is now too all-round as a weapon when compared to the Unlimited Range, Hit 2+ and D3 version on the Warmonger. Curious on other opinions on this issue. The Warp missile is easily the most difficult-to-get-right weapon in the list, but since it fits so well with the fluff I'm reluctant to drop it.

There's a new Support weapon option in the shape of the Cannons of Chaos (90cm BP4 MW Slow fire). The Heretek Shrine now has transport (2) instead of (4).

The Harbringer bomber now costs 375 points instead of 400.


Update 22/2 2017: Version 1.33

Small update, where the biggest change is to the Havoc Warp Missiles. After a lot of agonizing I've concluded that having indirect fire on Warp missiles is pretty boring for everyone involved. They therefore no longer have that. As compensation, they're now 3+ to hit, and ignores Dark Eldar Shadowfields as well (they still get -1 to hit tho, as they're not Ignore Cover). Warp missiles are now more of a hunter-killer type of weapon, which I'm more than OK with.

Other changes: The Khorne version of the Chaos Reaver (the Ravager) now has 2+ CC. Tzeench Battle weapons now are more interesting. Yet more name changes to special rules, titans and knights.

Since I'm starting to feel quite comfortable with the way the list looks, I'll probably make a quick reference sheet next.


Update 24/2 2017: Version 1.34

Tiny update with just some name changes, but now with a Quick Reference Sheet that's hopefully useful, free from errors and readable.


Update 26/2 2017: Version 1.35

Oracleboyd helpfully pointed out that it was impossible to build something that look like an Abominatus (Epic 40k Firepower #2). This update is largely meant to rectify this oversight by opening up the possibility to take a single piece of normally faction-restricted weaponry if you have the Greater Daemon Possession upgrade. It also renames the Wrecker to the Mangler and allows it to be taken on a Carapace hardpoint.

In addition there's a very explicit clarification that while the Warp missiles ignore the Shadowfield, it does not ignore their -1 to hit. Also fixed some errors in the QRS.


Update 6/3 2017: Version 1.4

Fairly big update that'll hopefully be stable for a while. Nerfed the Vortex missiles to 1 BP each. Previously they were a bit too good at crippling certain kind of BTS-formations the first turn. Also this puts a bit more space between them and the Cannons of Chaos / Hellstrike Cannon.

Having considered the outcome of the three playtest games I've had, Lesser Daemons now cost 20 points each instead of 15.

Tzeentch now has a Unity of Command-bonus that's in line with the others, gaining +1 to advance rolls. All Chaos Knights have seen changes to weapon stats and names. Fixed some errors in the QRS.


Update 15/3 2017: Version 1.41

Small post-playtest update after first game with pure Khorne.

The Greater Brass Scorpions can now be taken in groups of 3, and the range of their Scorpion Cannon is increased to 45cm. The Mangler close combat weapon is now slightly different.


Update 24/3 2017: Version 1.42

Now that I've had the first game against a player that's not in my usual group, I've changed the status of the list from Experimental to Developmental. Am pretty happy with how things are coming together. Don't really see any great changes ahead, but presumably a bit of tweaking and trimming around the edges as I (and hopefully others) play the different powers.

Some changes to the list after playtesting Khorne: The Maulers now have 30cm speed, which makes them a significantly more interesting choice. The Mangler battle close combat weapon is now slightly better.

Also, it was pointed out to me that the Black Legion Banelord happen to have the same critical as the Lord of Battles. I've therefore made "Enraging Blow" the critical for both the Banelord and the Skullhoarder. With all these buffs Khorne is getting, the Ravager has been nerfed down to 3+ CC (which is what it has in Black Legion anyhow).


Update 26/3 2017: Version 1.5

Got lots of good feedback and suggestions since the last update, so this is a pretty big one.

After playtesting the Chaos Emperor titan a few times I'm inclined to agree with those that think that it feels a bit too brittle and not monstrous enough. It has therefore seen a hefty bump in capability across the board, as well as an increase in cost. Perhaps it is now too cheap. On the one hand, they're now incredibly nasty in the assault, and exceptionally hard to kill (especially the Skullhoarder). But their fire power remains way below that of their Loyalist counterparts.

It turned out that the critical hit of the Banelord has some pretty significant differences with the Lord of Battles' (but were named and worded almost the same). This has now be corrected.

Lastly, since this list tries to be the ultimate in all things Traitor Legion, the Feral Warhound is now proper Khorne, and has exclusive access to the legendary "Ursus Claw" ((15cm),Small Arms. EA+1, TKD3). But they can only be bought in pairs, and must have different weapons on each arm.

Also some changes to names, some clarifications and tonnes of edits.


Update 30/3 2017: Version 1.6

Another big update. There's a new Chaos Undivided Support weapon (the "Ritlaxi Cyclone"), the Havoc Warp Missiles are a bit different, and Chaos Emperor titans can now have up to three Support weapons. This is to make what is now a very expensive choice more relevant and coherent on the battlefield.

A probably even greater change is that there's now the possibility to take bigger, more resilient units of Lesser Daemon Engine formations: All can now boost their numbers by two for a slightly discounted cost. This change is because I think there's a need for greater variety in that section, and also makes more types of builds possible. There's now an opportunity to play a pretty diverse Chaos Knight's themed list (as long as one can keep the factional animosity in check!).

Lastly, some changes to the Greater Daemon Engine formation point-rebates, which now scale with overall cost and numbers.


Update 12/7 2017: Version 1.7

Been a while, and I hope that people have got around to playing a match or two!

Quite a few changes in this version. The TTL should now see a much needed buff across the board.

-> The Emperor Titan now has the Greater Daemon Possession upgrade as a default. So if you buy a Warlord you can upgrade him too, and thus get two Supreme Commanders (which is actually covered in the rules. You get two re-rolls). That'll cost you a cool 1975 points tho (for a maximum of 7 activations in 3000 points).
-> Each Greater Daemon Possession bought allows one extra choice in the Lesser Daemons Section. Now makes slightly more sense take a Warlord and/or Emperor Titan.
-> Lesser Daemon Engines are cheaper across the board. The list struggles mightily with activations, and the titans don't have the range or firepower of the AMTL. The Cannons of Khorne have been introduced to give Khorne a garrison and some long range shooting.
-> Slaanesh Knights now have the same stats as in NetEA Emperor's Children, except the Hell-Striders retained their Scout ability.
-> Lesser Daemons cost 15 points again. The fact that the various daemonic beasts cost 2 points to summon really makes lesser daemons more balanced compared to other lists. Also, Flesh Hounds and Daemonettes on Steeds got a 4+ save.

Was tempted to change the Greater Brass Scorpion to the Brass Scorpion stats of the new Red Corsairs list, but decided against it as it would make a mess of list balance. Also, the fluff allows for a lot of different designs and sizes.


Update 4/8 2017: Version 1.8

After having done some thinking and some playtesting, here's another update!

Eye of the Gods is slightly cheaper.
Some Greater Daemon Engines now costs less to buy in multiples.
Slaneesh Daemon Knights are now one entry.
Hell-Scourges and Chaos Knights can now be bought in pairs.
Daemon Assault Engines now slightly cheaper.
The Defilers are now slightly cheaper. The Nurgle version has Infiltrate again but got a CC penalty instead.
Hell Blades have been changed to reflect other NetEA lists (15cm range, but AA5+)
Daemonettes on Steeds now have 20cm move and Infiltrate like in NetEA EC

As usual, all significant changes are marked in purple.


Attachments:
Traitor Titan Legions 1_8.pdf [97.24 KiB]
Downloaded 43 times
Traitor Legions QRS 1_8.pdf [180.61 KiB]
Downloaded 34 times

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:26 pm, edited 39 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:41 pm 
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woo!

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Last edited by IJW Wartrader on Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Grattis! Och lycka till!

Congrats! And good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Good one. Nice to see this moving along

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:54 pm 
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Titans + Daemons = LOVE <3


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:30 pm 
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We cant get enough chaos titans, especially the Slaanesh scouts.

Looking forward to see more


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
The "Animosity" rule from Lost and the Damned is virtually certain to be included.

As far as I'm aware this rule now only exists in the NetEA Stigmatus Coven list and the (relatively unused) EpicUK LatD list. It's been removed from/not used in Lost and the Damned Redux, Red Corsairs, Ghallamore Incursion and all variants of Black Legion.

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:43 pm 
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My dearest wish for an army is a list in which taking 2-3 Khorne Lords of Battle is possible/remotely usable. Mostly because I really need an excuse to make some Lords of Battle. Think they'll be included here?


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:01 am 
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mordoten wrote:
Grattis! Och lycka till!

Congrats! And good luck!


Tack!

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:17 am 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
Mrdiealot wrote:
The "Animosity" rule from Lost and the Damned is virtually certain to be included.

As far as I'm aware this rule now only exists in the NetEA Stigmatus Coven list and the (relatively unused) EpicUK LatD list. It's been removed from/not used in Lost and the Damned Redux, Red Corsairs, Ghallamore Incursion and all variants of Black Legion.


Well, we play the LatD quite a lot in my group, and it's actually a very strong list. But it is odd in many respects, and it would be interesting to know if the update to the Epic UK version I've heard rumors of will keep animosity (or "factions" as the rule is actually named). One reason I like it is because of fluff (it first appeared in the Rogue Trader era with the first chaos books). I can see "mortal" chaos getting along, but daemons really can't stand each other... And chaos titans are very daemonic in nature, they're pretty much gigantic daemon engines.

Also, perhaps more importantly, it presents players with interesting trade-offs in army composition and tactics. I think the list is going to be easier to balance as well. Trying to take the best bits from all chaos powers will make your list a lot more unstable.

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:26 am 
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NoisyAssassin wrote:
My dearest wish for an army is a list in which taking 2-3 Khorne Lords of Battle is possible/remotely usable. Mostly because I really need an excuse to make some Lords of Battle. Think they'll be included here?


I'm a bit on the fence about daemon engines in general, with chaos it's real easy to get way too many choices into the lists. Maybe they could replace the option to take Khorne Warhounds as in E-UK World Eaters. They're a really fun and not very OP unit (no walker, no shields), so I'll definitely think about it.

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:49 am 
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Agreed on the Factions rule. It's probably easier To manage anyway in a Titan list where you tend to have a low number of small factions.

Also agreed on Daemon Engines in general - stuff like Silver Towers or Contagions wouldn't really fit. Lords of Battle and Slaaneshi Subjugators and Questors, on the other hand...

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:59 am 
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Version 1.0 is up, and can be found in the first post as normal.

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Development is ongoing, and is found @ viewtopic.php?f=82&t=32062


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:26 am 
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Great thanks


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Chaos Titan Legion (CTL) list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:29 am 
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Excellent! I really like the overall feel, apart from a concern that lists will have to load up on Lesser Daemon Engine Formations due to Greater Daemon Engines being limited to one per Battle Titan. That will need some playtesting, though.


I assume from some of the weapon stats and from the criticals that this is mostly based on the EpicUK lists?

The NetEA Warhound equivalents, Lords of Battle, Subjugators and Questors only take damage from criticals if the random move makes them walk into something. The EpicUK crits are probably more balanced, I just wanted to check this is intentional.


Nurgle weapons also have some discrepancies from the current Death Guard list, so it might be worth changing either the stats or the names:

CTL Decay Cannon: 30cm 4xAP3+, Disrupt
DG Decay Cannon: 30cm 3xAP3+/AT5+, Disrupt

CTL Putrifier Cannon: 45cm 4xAP3+/AT5+, Disrupt
DG Putrifier Cannon: 60cm 4xAP3+/AT5+, Disrupt

The Corruption Cannon and Heavy Plague Mortar already have different names from the Liquefier Cannon and Plague Mortar so that's not an issue.


Rules Q: all formations have Daemonic Pact? That might be worth spelling out more clearly.

Army Q: AA coverage is only from the Heretek Shrine and Temple? EDIT - and aircraft, obviously!

Army Q: when you pick a Battle Titan, do the Greater and Lesser Daemon Engine formations have to be from the same faction? For example a Nurgle Chaos Reaver Titan and an Undivided Chaos Warhound?

Unit Q: Defilers have a smaller main gun. I assume this is to make the Titans more popular for range? 10cm move on the Nurgle ones means they will never be taken, but I'm not sure what to do differently. Maybe lose Walker?

Typo: the Emperor, Warlord and Reaver Titans have Carpace Weapons, this should be Carapace Weapons.

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