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[Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.8

 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Looking at the list more I'm strongly against you altering the Emperor titan stats! They should be basically the same as the imperial ones.

Sure in a 3k game an emperor titan's firepower is immense, however epic is a game won by objectives not firepower. A sensible opponent will ignore it and target the other formations, to reduce very low starting activation numbers to numbers so low they can't claim enough objectives to win. It can also be delayed or distracted by scouts or throwaway blocking units. If your group still see it as a problem in a 3k game just make it only available in 4k+ points? Please don't mess with the stats like you have now! The points cost and overall power should be equivalent to the imperial ones too and if that makes them less flexible or less often taken then so be it.

I approve of the faction rule in the list :) Both as a fan of the older chaos background and as a balancing tool and interesting limitation in the list.


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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:05 pm 
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I'm open to making the Chaos Emperor titan somewhat better and more expensive, as I agree that it is important that things should "feel" right. But I really don't like having units in the list that can't/won't/shouldn't be used. Also, coming up with unique weapons for each version of the Chaos Emperor would be a major pain, and clutter the list.

My interpretation of Chaos Titans is that they're overall inferior in firepower as compared to their loyalist counterparts, so the Chaos Emperor not being a total monster in that department doesn't bother me. Perhaps they could be somewhat better in firefight, and/or get a 4+ reinforced. And the points cost go up to 1050 / 1100 or so. But the further it gets from the Chaos Warlord, the less sense there is to actually put it in a list. Which I don't particularly like.

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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Suggested buffed Chaos Emperor and factional versions in the attached image. Would also bump the cost to 1100.


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Chaos Emperor.PNG
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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Yeah that looks better. It's the armour and ff5+ that bothered me more, them having less shooting attacks than imperial ones and therefore costing a bit less seems fine.


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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:29 pm 
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The Unity of Command rule requires a Supreme Commander. If the SC is killed during the battle is the bonus lost from then on? Whichever way you answer you should clarify the language of the special rule to state it clearly.

I'd suggest naming the new units 'Mauler Knight', 'Decayer Knight', etc rather than just Mauler, Decayer, ect. It's a subtle difference but makes it easier for an unfamiliar opponent or third party reading over a TTL army list to see obviously what it is without needing to look it up.

Decayed Knight sounds like a better name than Decayer to me and Weirder doesn't sound like a unit name GW would ever use. Warped Knight instead perhaps?

The Khorne only Mangler CCW weapon is way OTT! 4 x TK D3+1 attacks! Wow! The Iron Warriors Siegelord has a Siege Hammer CCW weapon that does 2 x TK D3+1 attacks (with no shooting) which seems more sensible. Make it 3 x TK D3 instead I'd suggest.

Musk Flail looks overpowered to me too. If you want to be first strike I'd drop the MW and have it be normal attacks.

That's as much feedback as I have to offer for the moment, time to go out drinking with the zumba ladies. I like the idea of the list though and might playtest it eventually at some point (I don't play all that often and mostly at tournaments).


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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Why did the Undivided Emporers bonus stay the same and the Khorne get weaker when the others got better?

The Lord of Battle Crit effect is funny, but would probably keep me from buying a 400 point model, much less an 1150 point one.


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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:46 am 
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GlynG wrote:
The Unity of Command rule requires a Supreme Commander. If the SC is killed during the battle is the bonus lost from then on? Whichever way you answer you should clarify the language of the special rule to state it clearly.

I'd suggest naming the new units 'Mauler Knight', 'Decayer Knight', etc rather than just Mauler, Decayer, ect. It's a subtle difference but makes it easier for an unfamiliar opponent or third party reading over a TTL army list to see obviously what it is without needing to look it up.

Decayed Knight sounds like a better name than Decayer to me and Weirder doesn't sound like a unit name GW would ever use. Warped Knight instead perhaps?

The Khorne only Mangler CCW weapon is way OTT! 4 x TK D3+1 attacks! Wow! The Iron Warriors Siegelord has a Siege Hammer CCW weapon that does 2 x TK D3+1 attacks (with no shooting) which seems more sensible. Make it 3 x TK D3 instead I'd suggest.

Musk Flail looks overpowered to me too. If you want to be first strike I'd drop the MW and have it be normal attacks.

That's as much feedback as I have to offer for the moment, time to go out drinking with the zumba ladies. I like the idea of the list though and might playtest it eventually at some point (I don't play all that often and mostly at tournaments).


Some good suggestions there. Especially the naming scheme for the Knights. I'll probably keep the "Weirder" name, there's too many variations on "warp" in the list as is. Will clarify that the Supreme Commander can perish and the bonuses stays on.

The problem with the Mangler is that it sits right next to the Doom Fist which is an exceptionally good choice. Even at 4 x D3+1 I'd personally take the Doom Fist instead. But I see what you mean.

The Musk Flail isn't all that OP I think. Perhaps one less attack on it.

Thanks for the encouragement, and I hope you get a chance to play it at some point!

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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:53 am 
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OracleBoyd wrote:
Why did the Undivided Emporers bonus stay the same and the Khorne get weaker when the others got better?

The Lord of Battle Crit effect is funny, but would probably keep me from buying a 400 point model, much less an 1150 point one.


You've got a point. I just compared the version that the Banelord has, and that of the Lord of Battles, and they're not the same. The Banelord version is a lot less nasty than the Lord of Battles version, so I need to make this clear.

While the Lord of Battles crit kills the war engine if it runs into something it can't run over, the Banelord version only gives an extra point of damage.

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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.42
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:46 am 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
OracleBoyd wrote:
Why did the Undivided Emporers bonus stay the same and the Khorne get weaker when the others got better?

The Lord of Battle Crit effect is funny, but would probably keep me from buying a 400 point model, much less an 1150 point one.


You've got a point. I just compared the version that the Banelord has, and that of the Lord of Battles, and they're not the same. The Banelord version is a lot less nasty than the Lord of Battles version, so I need to make this clear.

While the Lord of Battles crit kills the war engine if it runs into something it can't run over, the Banelord version only gives an extra point of damage.


That would certainly be better than having a 12DC War Machine destroyed by bumping into a building...

The Skullhoarder still probably needs something to balance out the buffs the other Imperators would get. Slaanesh can now get 6 First Strike attacks or 6 Regular CC attacks plus 3 Battlecannons, Undivided can get a 6BP Barrage, Tzeentch gets 4 IC Small Arms attacks and Nurgle gets 2 Extra DC + IC, D on it's 2 SA attacks. The Best Khorne can get is 2 MW CC attacks.


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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.5
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Post updated to 1.5

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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.5
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:36 am 
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I really don't think those slight upgrades are worth 100 points (especially for Khorne).

Ideally what I'd like to see is having these a lot closer to the Imperator base model:

Give them the Plasma Annihilator and Hellstorm Cannon Arms, Drop the Tertiary Arms and replace the Battlecannons with the Heretek Temple (3 shots with the same stats as the Warmongers Dual Autocannon). Then let them choose 2 of the Existing Carapace BW options. The question then becomes how to price them?

Swapping CC and FF is a slight downgrade and so is losing the 2 SA attacks (-50 maybe)
The Battlecannon swap is probably a slight downgrade or a wash given the Summoning boost (-25 at most)
None of the TTL Battleweapons are as good as the Defense Laser or Quake Cannon (-100 maybe)
So what are the Mutations worth?

I would suggest going back to the previous versions of those and putting a value of 50-75 points on them (WAG) we end up with 1150 as a good price. Maybe keep the Temple cannons with the current stats and call it 1100. This would let us convert the original models with a minimum of fuss and stay about even with an similarly built Imperial force in terms of activation count. The Emperor would then be worth spending the extra points on to get the big guns.

If you think that changes the character of the list too much, I would say that might be a valid choice for some folks and point out that it is only one model that most (sane) people aren't going to take anyway. An alternative would be keeping the firepower of those 2 guns pretty close to what they are now, but dropping the range by 15-30cm (lowering the cost of the unit appropriately).


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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.5
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:34 am 
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I'm personally more interested in exploring what the Chaos Emperor Titan can be beyond just the Imperator configuration, and I also think that giving Loyalist weapons to the Chaos versions would go against the theme of the list (which in comparison to AMTL trades range and fire power for greater flexibility and assault).

I'll try and take an Abominatus config to my next playtest (along with the new Feral Warhounds), and we'll see how it goes. With the new crit, it's exceptionally hard to kill, and would very likely beat the crap out of an Imperator or Mega-Gargant if it managed to get into base-to-base.

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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.5
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Will probably playtest the Chaos Emperor titan with the rules and weapons as described in the attachment. Think they could be more interesting this way.


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Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG [ 51.18 KiB | Viewed 565 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.5
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:20 pm 
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I can totally understand your vision and don't particularly object to it, but the Emporer Titans especially feel a bit nerfed. And I could be wrong, but I think most people who convert an Emperor will stick with the basic 2 Arm weapons.

I like the upgrade to 3 Support Weapons (it certainly helps justify the cost increase), but we probably need to add more Carapace options, not take them out. With your proposed changes, Khorne and Slaanesh are forced to take at least one SW Havok launcher if they use 3 Support Weapons. Thoughts on adding a couple more Undivided options? I feel like there are starting to be a very limited number of builds for each Faction (for those of us crazy enough to want to run the big guy)...


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 Post subject: Re: [Developmental] Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) 1.5
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:02 am 
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Well, you don't *have* to take three support weapons. And the Havoc Missiles can be pretty nasty too.

I think there need to be some playtesting before doing any further changes.

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