Tactical Command

Death Guard v0.5-0.6
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Author:  atension [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5

Forgive my spelling and grammar. Typing this from my phone.

Author:  atension [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5

gunslinger007 wrote:
Thanks for the tactical overview on how you is CE IJW. I'll have to see if I can make them work in that context.

I can't speak for the DG list that won NEAT, but my list won Fall In back in November. I brought:

Retinue + Supreme Commander + mark
Retinue + Champion + mark
Retinue + mark
Blight Drones
Terminators + mark
Plague Tower
Plague Ship
Fester Titan
Vidicators + Nurglings

No AA? Interesting, I usually played slight varients on the following:

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS 
Death Guard (NetEA V0.4.2) 
7 Plague Marines, Lord of Pestilence (Supreme Commander), Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Lesser Daemon), 4 Death Guard Rhino
Death Guard Daemon Prince, 4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Lesser Daemon)
6 Death Guard Vindicators
5 Blight Drones
4 Plague Marine Chosen, Plague Lord, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Lesser Daemon), 2 Death Guard Rhino, Chaos Champion
Plague Tower
Plague Tower
3 Hellblade Fighters
2 Helltalon Fighter-Bombers
Lesser Daemon (Plaguebearers, Beasts of Nurgle), Great Unclean One

Garrison the non SC retinue and the chosen. Use the SC retinue as blitz guard. Apply pressure with the towers and the aircraft. Disrupt the opponents deployment with the plague ship and zombies. The GUO is just fun and really hard to deal with.

Haven't tried played with the current terminators yet. I did play against them though. They are next to impossible to kill, mainly just break and ignore. The 5+ inv is quite strong on a 4+RA fearless infantry though.

Edit: working on building a list with the new version. My biggest criticism is you badly need to simplify. There is just way too many special rules. A lot of special rules means you are going to piss off your opponents.

Author:  gunslinger007 [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5

I'm planning on adding hellblades to my next list trial list. As fluffy and fun as the desecrator variants are, I find they die too easily for their price point. Doubly so in an expensive list low on activations. I'd rather take a plague reaper, vindis, hellblades or squeeze in another retinue at a similar price range.

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Author:  Blip [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5

Interessting how different both of those lists are to what IJW generaly plays. Tbh, most of our games have been at UK tournaments, but generally he plays a simular strategy in NetEA, plus some extra (very handy) tools (blight drones!!) Strangely we havent managed many games since i moved near, and both involved me experimenting heavily - plus they got decided to lesser or greater extent by my activation rolls. We should try to do a bat rep (unless IJW has one saved somewhere?)

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5

The first six batreps on http://wargamingtrader.com/tags/battle-report are for various versions of NetEA Death Guard, but nothing more recent than 0.4.3. However the lists aren't always typical as I tend to be trying out new unit changes and 'forcing' stuff like fully tooled out Chosen.

Author:  gunslinger007 [ Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5

Had the chance to get four more games with the Death Guard at NEAT XI.

Friday night I played a 4000pt list against Dave's Iyanden. The list looked something like:
Retinue + Havocs + SC
Retinue + Havocs + Sorcerer + Champion
Daemon Pool + GUO
Terminators + Daemon Prince
Blight Drones
Contagion Towers
Plague Tower
Plague Tower
Plague Reaper + Nurgs
Fester Titan
Fester Titan
Plague Ship

It was a good way to get familiar with the list and game again. Dave is always a tough match up that will keep you working. The game was pretty bloody with DG winning on points, 2300 to 1600.

Thoughts on the list:
- After playing the UK list, I think I like the idea of having the defilers bundled up into a single stat line. This helps to reduce bloat in the list.
- The plague Reaper alone is a formation that breaks easy and even if it rallies, it's easy to keep it broken. Adding the nurglings was the perfect solution. It had the added bonus to having an assault by wraithguard bounce off it after the nurglings soaked the MW.
- The Daemon Prince as an upgrade for terminators makes a really tough BTS. With a 3++ with invulnerable save and fearless. Even when the other terminators die, he keeps on chugging. Plus the +2MW in CC is a great boost after teleporting in.
- I think plague zombies are missing a stat line for the list?
- This was my first time taking the Contagion Towers. They served their purpose, but I just don't see them competing with Plague Towers. They break and lose strength pretty easily whereas the Tower is a monster until it's eliminated. The indirect was nice though.
- The GUO is a huge asset. Summoning him as early as possible makes the already tough retinue that much tougher, and allows it to soak up lots of shots. The inspiring in engagements is a huge help.

The list I took the tournament Saturday was:
Retinue + havocs +SC + pact
Retinue + havocs + sorcerer + champion + pact
Daemon Pool + GUO + 3x lesser daemons
Terminators + Daemon Prince + pact
Plage Tower
Plague Reaper + Nurgs
Fester Titan
Fester Titan
Plague Ship

Game 1: DG v Emperor's Children
This was a brawl of a game with chaos v chaos. The EC are tough and Matt played them well, putting a lot of pressure on me through turn 2. The game ultimately came down to winning some good activations on Turn 3 to break extra EC activations and the desecrators ripping apart two hell blade formations.
DG wins, 3-0

Game 2: DG v Death Korps
Anthony had a list that was fit to give my war engine heavy list stiches with multiple Shadowswords, marcarius tank formations, and the requisite infantry Gorgon mobs. He took advantage of my lower activations on Turn 1 to push the flanks with his Shadowswords, put shots on my Fester's and almost pop my Reaper. I pulled an aggressive teleport on turn two with my Termies to destroy a warhound, and break the marcarius tanks. I'd closed enough ground by that point my Fester Titans and plague tower could start dropping disrupt and IC templates of the infantry formation on my flanks to break one, and tie up the other. Turn three had some manuvering for objectives and disrupt fire to try and limit the krieg's ability to counter.
DG wins, 3-0

Game 3: DG v Dave's Iyanden
In a lower point rematch from the night before, we ended up on the same table we played on the night before, so we switched sides. This game was messy and can be summed up with failed activations on both sides. I had three fail in the first turn, four if you include the use of my SC reroll. Dave took advantage and executed some excellent positioning and assults with supporting fire that broke both my retinues. I tied up his SC's wraidguard/Lord formation by dropping zombies onto the gate, bogging them down, and then template sniping his SC with the Plague Tower in some rolls of remarkable good/bad luck. The toughness of the DG let me claw back through turns two and three and a turn 2 teleport assault by my terminators wiped out Dave's BTS. Dave's final activation to grab my blitz failing on turn 3 saw the game go to turn four. Unfortunately, I failed 3 of my remaining 6 activations (again failing with the SC reroll!) which gave Dave the room and activations to manuer how he needed to and grab a 2-1 victory securing blitz and take and hold.

The Death Guard are and incredibly tough and resilient army. The fearless allows them to really hang around. However, the slow units and inability to March definitely make early deployment critical and sometimes unforgiving. I think the army is incredibly flavorful, and mostly manages to keep that within reasonable rules that play well on the table w/o giving or losing too much. I'll be happy to keep testing them some more, but after a year and a half of using them as my primary, I might bring another force out for a bit.

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Author:  gunslinger007 [ Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5

@IJW, out of curiosity, what are you looking for to bring this list to the next level? Any specific items that need more testing or you're looking for feedback on?

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Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5

Back again, after another months-long break from Epic... :(

After a game last night plus a load of discussion during the game, followed by reading back through the last three threads, my main priorities for testing and feedback are Beasts of Nurgle, Terminators and a slight reduction in overall complexity.

Beasts of Nurgle
The per-unit Nurgle's Rot works reasonably well both mechanically and thematically, the main issue is balancing this in the statline, so that Beasts of Nurgle and Plaguebearers both have their place.

The next version I want to test will be:
Spd 10cm Arm 3+ CC5+ FF-
Ignore Cover on their CC attack.
Expendable, Inv Save, Mounted, Nurgle's Rot, Walker. (And removing the Playfully Distracted rule so that they now count for outnumbering.)
Summon: 1pt

Plaguebearers are going to give you a better chance of winning the assault* due to Spd 15cm CC4+ and FF6+, but the Beasts are going to make the assault more painful for the opponent due to potential multiple Nurgle's Rot rolls.

*Although poor-save enemy formations in cover (as long as it's not Buildings) will still be the prime target for Beasts due to Ignore Cover on their CC5+.

Round and round in circles...

Last night against Tau I took a formation of two Blightlord stands, two Deathshroud stands and a Nurgling Infestation upgrade, but proceeded to lose the strategy roll and they were target priority number one for the Tau, breaking almost instantly from multiple attacks followed up by more attacks to try and wipe them. And then didn't rally. But later in the game the one surviving stand of Blightlords very nearly beat up a formation of Crisis Suits in an assault. I forgot to apply the 5+ Inv Save, but as one of them died from rolling three ones in a row to save, it wasn't that critical.

Still, it wasn't that useful as a test. As previously discussed, I think it's partly just an issue of hitting the design space limitations of the game mechanics, which aren't designed to represent very expensive INF units.

The Cataphractii rule and 5+ Inv Save will probably go, but I'm considering bumping the Deathshrouds up to 3+ Reinforced.

Rules & Units Reduction
On top of taking away the Playfully Distracted and Cataphractii rules, I'm probably going to take away the PM Retinue's 'free Leader when on an objective' rule which removes a big chunk of DG-specific rules.

I've also been re-writing the transport rules so that Nurgling Infestations aren't listed in the transport capacities - instead, all AVs in the list can transport one Nurgling Infestation unit (in addition to any existing transport capacity) and all War Engines can transport as many as their starting DC. This reduces the transport text considerably and is much easier to remember. This could lead to some odd edge-cases if the Nurglings are the only units left from a formation, such as hitching a ride on a Fester Titan, but I don't think that's likely to cause issues.

In terms of reducing the number of units etc, the main options would be:
Defiler equivalents - the obvious choice would be dropping the Plague Hulks, as I appear to be the only player using them in any quantity. However this would be a shame as it's the only Chaos Power-specific Defiler that actually exists in the background.
Death Guard Dreadnoughts and DG Assault Dreadnoughts could be rolled into a single unit with two weapon options (like Space Marine Dreads), but I'm not sure this actually reduces things much.
Biologus Putrifier Character - six upgrade characters is manageable, but there's a lot of the overlap with the formation-level Nurgle's Rot upgrade. I might combine this with the Champion or Iconbearer.
I'm also considering combining the Walker (Defiler equivalents) and Dreadnought upgrades into one upgrade of up to three Defilers/Desecrators/Plague Hulks/Dreads/Assault Dreads in any combination. However I'll have to see if Chosen are OK if you can add Desecrators, and Contagions if you can add 50pt Assault Dreads.

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6

Version 0.6.0 is up in the first post, a temporary version of the list builder can be found at http://ijw.on-rev.com/armyforge_temp/ch ... g060_NETEA

Author:  atension [ Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6

Got a game with version 0.6 this afternoon. Like how its a little more streamlined. Not a fan if nurgles Rot though, seems like an excessive amount of extra rolling. I'm not a fan of the pervious version either though. Assaults are already generally the most powerful action as no matter the dice, something will be at least broken as a result. DG in this are already quite potent in assaults due to their armour, almost universal fearless, and goid CC/FF across the board. To add another effect on top just is overkill in my opinion. I feel the list has broken a little away from the fluff. Deathguard from what I've always thought would be a shambling horde of zombies (poxwalkers) as your core. Plague marines/terms to support. Few AV units other than drones. I would suggest removing the armor companies from the core and moving zombies in. They shouldnt be a limited formation.
Id rewrite the rot special rule spawn more zombies. And make daemons more cost effective.

That said the list performed very well, 4-0 victory over steel legion end of turn 3. Mvp was the drone formations due to their speed and versatility. Plague towers did quite well also.

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6

Thanks for the feedback.

Fluff-wise, as far as I'm aware, Plague Marines have always been the core of the Deathguard, it's only with 40k 8th that plague zombies have become a big thing rather than an add-on.

For Core zombies, I assume you mean without them unlocking any support formations?

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6

Also, could you expand on the daemons comment?

Author:  atension [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6

IJW Wartrader wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.

Fluff-wise, as far as I'm aware, Plague Marines have always been the core of the Deathguard, it's only with 40k 8th that plague zombies have become a big thing rather than an add-on.

For Core zombies, I assume you mean without them unlocking any support formations?

I don't mean remove the plague marines just the armour. I think fluff wise 8th has made fluffy lists more viable. But the literature often has swarms of zombies.

Author:  gunslinger007 [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6

A few thoughts on the recent developments to the list are included below. Sorry for the wall of text but here we go:

·        Beasts of Nurgle: I’m glad that Playfully distracted was removed. I think the current iteration is good, although I’m not sure I’d take them over Plaguebearers if for no other reason than the 6+ FF shot. That’s my personal preference though and think they should still be kept in the list.

·        Terminators: I still think that the list should revert to the singular type of “Death Guard” terminators. While it is delightfully fluffy, having two distinct types strikes me as too granular for the Epic scale. I like the 4+RA/3+/3+ stat line with the 15cm 4+ IC. As for the Cataphractii upgrade, I think adding the INV 5+ is a great way to help distinguish DG terminators as their own “type”, however I don’t think it’s necessary. I’m assuming that Walker/Mounted accompanies this upgrade? Pushing them up to 3+ RA might be a bit far, especially with the price reduction to 325. When I add a Daemon Prince to get the 3+ RA, he shrugs off A LOT of fire. A whole unit of them would be rough. I’m not sure the unit should be reduced to 325; 350 might be the sweet spot. If the armor goes to 3+, I’d think that should stay higher up around the 400 mark. I think that “teleportarium” should be titled “teleport” simply to keep it in line with existing Epic abilities and terminology

·        Playfully Distracted: I’m fine with this being removed. This was a bit too fluffy and might be better served in scenario games.

·        Retinue x-Leader on Obj: Again, I’m fine with the removal. This rule was a bit clunky so to say, and too fluffy for regular tournament scenarios.
·        Nurgle Infestation – This is one of my favorite aspects of the list! I think this was great idea to come up with. Annecdotately, people I’ve played against have thought this was a great rule as well since it really captures the feel and fluff of the nurglings while adding a nice bit a flavor to AVs. I think its costed well at the moment. I love adding it the Plaguereaper to allow it soak up more BMs and help keep it from breaking. I think the new wording is a good clarification.

·        Defilers – maybe just have the plague hulk as an upgrade beyond the standard weapons line since it is a bit of an iconic Death Guard? Personally, I think three variants clutters the list up.

·        Dreadnoughts – agreed with your proposal to streamline the update to match how dreads are shown in the Space Marine lists. It adds consistency and helps to trim the list a bit.

·        Plague Tower Transports – Is the Tower’s transport line supposed to allow for the transport of 16 GUOs? I know this can’t really even happen, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around a 4DC Greater demon taking up less space than a terminator! Maybe they just sort of ooze their way into nooks and crannies to maximize space!

·        Nurgle’s Rot – I’ve found this rule to be a little picky, although my opponents have liked it and felt it fits into the list well, although I’ll admit I’ve continued to use the original concept. I prefer the initial iteration of the rule, where there was one BM applied to a winning enemy formation, or one more hack down caused if the enemy broke. The rolling for each individual unit to determine if there is a hit makes the rule too granular for my opinion and lacks the more streamlined ease of the first version. Either way, I would recommend adding a clarification on how formations offering supporting fire are impacted. We’ve played that if the NR formation is supporting or is impacted by enemy supporting fire, the rule doesn’t take effect. This is because the rule specifically states “assaulting or being assaulted.” However, it might be worth adding a sentence to clarify just because it can be a bit of a grey area for people on a first read.

All of that out of the way, I think you’re doing a great job with the list IJW! This list definitely has a distinct play style and the fearless/inv saves are balanced by the army’s inability to march and its overall slow nature and lack of mobility. Despite those factors, it has rapidly become one of my favorite armies to play with. Opponents have fun against it as well, find the formations tougher to eliminate, but smiling when they’re reminded the list can’t march. The expensive cost of formations and the limited activation count in the army helps to balance it as well. The fact that the list is fun both to play with and against is a great testament to your ability to balance the list and the steps you’re taking to continue to develop it further. Keep up the great work!

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Author:  atension [ Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6

IJW Wartrader wrote:
Also, could you expand on the daemons comment?

I just like daemons. The way the list is currently stuctured with more expensive fornations its hard to justify including them and sacrificing formation count. Not that thats necessarily bad.

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