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2017 - Ork Review

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Though very fluffy to give the Warlord a boost when he shouts Waaagghhhhh and all the boyz pile in! :-)

In fact, perhaps one way to boost warbands is to give the warlord Inspiring as long as he is placed on foot leading his ladz and fighting like a proper ork? (Rather than skulking about in a gargant or suchlike).


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
Actually I would not make it that complicated. I would simply tie inspiring to the outnumbering modifier in an assault. Meaning if orks get the outnumbering +1 after removal of casulties they get an additional +1 for inspiring. If the get +2 for having more than twice the number they get the additional +2 for inspiring. Befitting the orky psykology to get all hyped when they see enemies drowning in a green tide making them especially effective in wiping formations when winning and going into a hackdown frenzy or reducing their own hack downs when losing but numbers are still up adding to their sense of prevailing when they are outnumbering the opponent.

This would of course mean it would work with any numbers of orks.


This is probably the cleanest incarnation of this yet. It makes clipping assaults against large Ork formations particularly difficult, and it encourages at least one or two large formations because with only one Commander, combined assaults are hard to come by.

What if we added something like the following to Mob Rule (I always think testing out the precise wording is good to find loopholes or edge cases):
Quote:
In addition, during assault resolution Orks double any modifiers they receive for outnumbering their enemy or outnumbering two to one.


The one thing that comes to mind is that even modest sized Ork formations would give MSU enemies a very hard time in engagements, but maybe this is a feature rather than a bug.

I'm also very much in favor of Inspiring for Warlords on foot, but I think we should focus on one change at a time for this problem.

Speaking of, where are we on the Skorcha/Oddboy changes? What do we need to do to get those "accepted" enough that we can move on?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Like the idea that they get +2/+4 on outnumbering. Clean and simple.

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 Post subject: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:54 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
But you can buy multiple Nobz in every unit. That would be crazy powerfull with multiple Inspiring +1 for combat resolution.

Another idea would to add the following to the "Mob Rule" rule: The formation gains inspiring ability when having more than 10 models.



Agree - Inspiring would make ork air assaults insanely good - not unlikely you start with +7 combat res (bms, 4 nobz, outnumber)

+2/+4 is potentially interesting - trouble is would it carry over to freaks and ferals who would be scary as with that. Maybe tie it to boyz with nobz only? Though again, does have some possible OP potential with the already strong ork air assault.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Well, the only way i can think of to avoid making the air assaults better is using my first idea about giving orks Inspiring when they're more then 10 models. A Landa can only fit 10 (Grots doesn't count of course).

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:35 am 
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I know that. Something the Ork list need to possibly look at getting changed. Perhaps a good option is to have a new unit upgrade. A Nob unit could be upgraded to a Big Nob unit (1 per formation). The Big Nob unit gets leader, Commander, and perhaps inspiring, and would likely cost 25 - 50 points for the upgrade option. Many generals will want to min/max, so opt to avoid the upgrade. Others will get them in most of their formations, thus reducing points available elsewhere in the army. You could make it a stipulation of the upgrade that the formation have a minimum of 10 infantry units before it can take the upgrade.

Something like this - If the formation has 10 infantry units or more (not including Grots of Squig catapults, then a single Nob unit can be upgraded to a Big Nob unit. This upgrade costs (25 or 50) points, and adds commander and inspiring to the unit.

This might be a better option to include Inspiring into the Ork lists.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:16 am 
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I don't see why orks need inspiring. 'Because other armies have it' is not a reason.... should we give grotz to space marines? or how about being able to mount a super zzap gun on a wave serpent? ;)

Orks need a viable transport option for ground-based mobs, I think a battlefort with power fields goes a long way to solving this issue (I use two in my list and they are great) I'd like to see cheaper battlewagons, but that also kind of steps on the speed freeks list's toes

Due to the metagame favouring higher activation counts, big and 'uge mobs don't see much use as anything other than objective-holding blobs, but with a minimum of 4 grotz and 4 leaders, they are very effective at doing so, adding inspiring into the mix just makes them even better at doing something they are perfectly good at already

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Well hang on a second, kyuss. No one is saying we should give Orks Inspiring because another army has it. We discussed this earlier in the thread. There are some clear issues with the list that we're trying to address. To sum it up as best I can:

    - Warbands on foot are slow, which means they rarely get to make a charge and instead are extremely vulnerable to clipping (being great in CC but terrible in FF makes this even worse)

    - Transports for Warbands are expensive, which limits the size of the formation

    - Due to the meta, paying for a 'Uge formation (of any type) is almost never done. Warbands especially are never taken 'Uge because it amplifies the speed/clipping/transport cost issues above

So in a metagame that heavily favors high activation counts and clipping assaults, how do you make 'Uge formations worth taking? How do you make it so massed Ork bodies (the traditional Orky way to win a scrap) are an asset rather than a liability?

That's why we're talking about Inspiring for outnumbering or for mobs bigger than 10 or for a new unit very narrowly targeted at Big/'Uge Warbands. And that's a parallel train of thought to reducing the cost of Warbands and Battlewagons, which I also support and which should definitely be tested first.

I've tried out the Oddboy Battlewagons now too, and I think they're ok. They're a fairly expensive way to get a formation into an engagement. I don't think that solves the problem we're talking about here.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:56 pm 
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GrimDarkBits wrote:
Well hang on a second, kyuss. No one is saying we should give Orks Inspiring because another army has it. We discussed this earlier in the thread. There are some clear issues with the list that we're trying to address. To sum it up as best I can:

    - Warbands on foot are slow, which means they rarely get to make a charge and instead are extremely vulnerable to clipping (being great in CC but terrible in FF makes this even worse)

    - Transports for Warbands are expensive, which limits the size of the formation

    - Due to the meta, paying for a 'Uge formation (of any type) is almost never done. Warbands especially are never taken 'Uge because it amplifies the speed/clipping/transport cost issues above

So in a metagame that heavily favors high activation counts and clipping assaults, how do you make 'Uge formations worth taking? How do you make it so massed Ork bodies (the traditional Orky way to win a scrap) are an asset rather than a liability?

That's why we're talking about Inspiring for outnumbering or for mobs bigger than 10 or for a new unit very narrowly targeted at Big/'Uge Warbands. And that's a parallel train of thought to reducing the cost of Warbands and Battlewagons, which I also support and which should definitely be tested first.

I've tried out the Oddboy Battlewagons now too, and I think they're ok. They're a fairly expensive way to get a formation into an engagement. I don't think that solves the problem we're talking about here.


Isn't a lot of this due to the scale of epic games meaning 15cm move infantry is only really useful as a ground holder, they become an offensive threat when given transports be it air transports or ground.

Ork warbands certainly don't need a boost when in a landa.

As a ground holder I'd argue they are just as effective, if not more, than most infantry formations. Yes their FF isn't great but they have a save (and most likely will be in cover anyway) and can be cheaply upgraded with MW barrage, TK and AA. Also I'm not convinced they are any more vulnerable to clipping than any other formation, perhaps less so. On the minus side they have poor FF again, but good numbers and the use of grots can mitigate the effectiveness of clipping assaults if placed well - having grots on the edge of the formation likely to be clipped and the assaulter will have to involve more units to get any support on actual boyz/nobz).

Giving inspiring for numbers etc just boosts the formations ability to hold ground, have a uge warband with multiple inspiring+possibly some upgrades start on OW on your blitz and another objective, or march them up to other obejctives like you would with a titan and they'll be really hard to shift. They still won't be an offensive threat though as they are still 15cm move.

I'd suggest either dropping the points of battlewagons or making them transport (3)+1 1 grot to make it cheaper to mechanise the formation and give them the movement to be an offensive threat.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Yes, the best fix is for sure dropping the price of battle wagons! I also like the idea of transport (3). Anything to make non-Landa mobs more usefull in games.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:44 am 
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Theres so many pages here and im to lazy to go through them all but....

being a pain in the doodle and bring up Orkeosaurus Crits again.

http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 95&t=32915

Dave was saying it they play it that it only hits 1 stand when it scatters about. If this is the case for every1 else can we put it in writing on the crit????

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:47 am 
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For Orkasaurus Crits, it specifically states that if it hits another unit when scattering , it stops, and causes a MW hit on THE UNIT it hit, If it runs into impassable terrain, it is destroyed.

As to the Inspiring, Almost all the armies have 1 or more units or character upgrade (some of which are free) that provide inspiring. Saying Orks can not have inspiring, because it would make them harder to kill off or beat in engagements is trying to unbalance the game.

Dark Eldar have Succubus/Dracons, Haemonuclus Ancient and the Archon all with inspiring. Imperial Guard get free Commissars while Vraksian Renegades get Free Enforcers for every 500 points. Marines get Chaplains, Eldar get the Autarch, Exarchs and the Avatar. Necrons not known for having inspiring units, but fearless, have the Pariahs, the Deceiver and the Nightbringer. Chaos who should have inspiring all over the place with their Commanders, Warlords, and so on, only have it from the Greater Daemons (They should get it - more for thematic reasons rather than for game play on their field commanders who inspire through fear.)

Orks, poor bloody Ork do not get a single Inspiring unit. Orks have always had a Uge Nobz or Warlord shouting at da boyz. "Get in there maggots, derz a fight and we iz not in it. Get in there now before I biffs you one around the ear 'ole."

And when they want to turn tail and run, he hits one of them cowardly maggots, and sometimes kills the lazy fool. The other boyz soon learn the enemy can urt us, but at least we can fight back and probably get some nice shiny bits to sell or make bigger and betta gunz with.

My idea of having a Nob unit upgraded to a big Nob unit (for a points cost increase), with the proviso that the formation (mob) is of a large enough size in infantry units (not including grots ot grot artillery), is a decent one. It limits the amount of inspiring you get because you need to have a large enough formation size, it cost extra points to take the one Nob per formation and upgrade it. Orks currently have only 1 commander, their supreme commander. They can not use combined assaults like most of the other armies out there.

Most of their weaponry has a poor chance of hitting, and Orks do not have the best weapon ranges out there. With their low speed (for the most part), they tend to use either speed freaks, landas, LV trucks, expensive gun or battle wagons, slow Orkasaurus, vulnerable Squiggoths, to get anywhere, or just march about on foot.

They do not have any of the special warp gates like Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar. Mass fast transport vehicles like the Imperium.
Why not give Orks inspiring? They should get it as they have had in 40K for decades. They need a way to help them survive the combined assaults from other races like Dark Eldar, Space Marines, etc

Even an Imperial Guard army can perform a combined assault using a commander who sends in a regimental command platoon backed up by 3 infantry platoons. Each has a free commissar and either a Captain or Lieutenant. That makes 48 units with 8 of them having EA +1 MW in CC, and 4 of them providing inspiring. If you get them in close enough you will have most of them FF the enemy on a 5+, who will most likely not survive to do the combat resolution, but if they some how get to that phase, they have 4 enemy with inspiring, and all the units they lost that engagement, and the guard still outnumber 3 or 4 to 1. A little drastic a tactic from the guard, but still possible. The Guard are more likely to sit on overwatch in cover and shoot most of the Orks before they can complete their charge.

Orks need something to pick them up and make them more viable. Their Artillery is generally shorter ranged with little/no indirect. They do not get much MW or TK ranged weapons like other army lists get. Not much at all for disrupt weapons. They use their numbers, and use more formations/activations to try and overwhelm the enemy and take objectives. Most times their formations get shot to bits before they even reach the enemy, and a 6+ save the infantry get are not as good as you think. There are a lot of IC weapons to stop the cover saves.

Oh, Space Marines (Black Templars) get a version of Grots. Their initiates are expendable in the new Black Templar's list. I think Guard Penal units are also expendable.

My vote is to allow a single unit upgrade for larger formations. Pay the points cost and give it inspiring, and possibly commander (however commander might tip the balance a tad too much).

My main army is dark Eldar (10,000+ points), however I have been building a decent Ork Force up, and it is only now just over 8,000 points split over 3 ork lists.

WAAAAARRRGGGHHH. Kill dem Ummeez.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:58 am 
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im more talking about if its surrounded in b2b with multiple units. its already in b2b with more then 1.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Deb wrote:
For Orkasaurus Crits, it specifically states that if it hits another unit when scattering , it stops, and causes a MW hit on THE UNIT it hit, If it runs into impassable terrain, it is destroyed.

As to the Inspiring, Almost all the armies have 1 or more units or character upgrade (some of which are free) that provide inspiring. Saying Orks can not have inspiring, because it would make them harder to kill off or beat in engagements is trying to unbalance the game.

Dark Eldar have Succubus/Dracons, Haemonuclus Ancient and the Archon all with inspiring. Imperial Guard get free Commissars while Vraksian Renegades get Free Enforcers for every 500 points. Marines get Chaplains, Eldar get the Autarch, Exarchs and the Avatar. Necrons not known for having inspiring units, but fearless, have the Pariahs, the Deceiver and the Nightbringer. Chaos who should have inspiring all over the place with their Commanders, Warlords, and so on, only have it from the Greater Daemons (They should get it - more for thematic reasons rather than for game play on their field commanders who inspire through fear.)

Orks, poor bloody Ork do not get a single Inspiring unit. Orks have always had a Uge Nobz or Warlord shouting at da boyz. "Get in there maggots, derz a fight and we iz not in it. Get in there now before I biffs you one around the ear 'ole."

And when they want to turn tail and run, he hits one of them cowardly maggots, and sometimes kills the lazy fool. The other boyz soon learn the enemy can urt us, but at least we can fight back and probably get some nice shiny bits to sell or make bigger and betta gunz with.

My idea of having a Nob unit upgraded to a big Nob unit (for a points cost increase), with the proviso that the formation (mob) is of a large enough size in infantry units (not including grots ot grot artillery), is a decent one. It limits the amount of inspiring you get because you need to have a large enough formation size, it cost extra points to take the one Nob per formation and upgrade it. Orks currently have only 1 commander, their supreme commander. They can not use combined assaults like most of the other armies out there.

Most of their weaponry has a poor chance of hitting, and Orks do not have the best weapon ranges out there. With their low speed (for the most part), they tend to use either speed freaks, landas, LV trucks, expensive gun or battle wagons, slow Orkasaurus, vulnerable Squiggoths, to get anywhere, or just march about on foot.

They do not have any of the special warp gates like Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar. Mass fast transport vehicles like the Imperium.
Why not give Orks inspiring? They should get it as they have had in 40K for decades. They need a way to help them survive the combined assaults from other races like Dark Eldar, Space Marines, etc

Even an Imperial Guard army can perform a combined assault using a commander who sends in a regimental command platoon backed up by 3 infantry platoons. Each has a free commissar and either a Captain or Lieutenant. That makes 48 units with 8 of them having EA +1 MW in CC, and 4 of them providing inspiring. If you get them in close enough you will have most of them FF the enemy on a 5+, who will most likely not survive to do the combat resolution, but if they some how get to that phase, they have 4 enemy with inspiring, and all the units they lost that engagement, and the guard still outnumber 3 or 4 to 1. A little drastic a tactic from the guard, but still possible. The Guard are more likely to sit on overwatch in cover and shoot most of the Orks before they can complete their charge.

Orks need something to pick them up and make them more viable. Their Artillery is generally shorter ranged with little/no indirect. They do not get much MW or TK ranged weapons like other army lists get. Not much at all for disrupt weapons. They use their numbers, and use more formations/activations to try and overwhelm the enemy and take objectives. Most times their formations get shot to bits before they even reach the enemy, and a 6+ save the infantry get are not as good as you think. There are a lot of IC weapons to stop the cover saves.

Oh, Space Marines (Black Templars) get a version of Grots. Their initiates are expendable in the new Black Templar's list. I think Guard Penal units are also expendable.

My vote is to allow a single unit upgrade for larger formations. Pay the points cost and give it inspiring, and possibly commander (however commander might tip the balance a tad too much).

My main army is dark Eldar (10,000+ points), however I have been building a decent Ork Force up, and it is only now just over 8,000 points split over 3 ork lists.

WAAAAARRRGGGHHH. Kill dem Ummeez.

But giving the warband inspring just makes them better at what they are already good at- holding ground, without doing anything to address why they might be a sub par mechanised choice.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Has anyone suggested simply making Big And Uge warbands cheaper, while keeping the standard (air droppable) mob at the current points cost?

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