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Dark Eldar Army List 2017

 Post subject: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:24 am 
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Howdy All,
Please see attached version 1.1 for Dark Eldar Playtesting. Changes are in Red.

I would like playtesting to focus on the executioner and tormentor over the next few months. If you are interested, please have a go at a 2 x executioner list, a 2 x tormentor list, and a executioner and a tormentor list.

Regards,
Jim


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File comment: V1.1. Changes in Red.
NETEA Dark Eldar 2017 Playtesting V1.1.pdf [123.17 KiB]
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NETEA Dark Eldar 2017 Playtesting 1.0.pdf [169.19 KiB]
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Last edited by JimXII on Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:07 am 
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Thanks for the update and proposals.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:06 am 
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Looks good! Thanks !

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:08 am 
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Well done mate... :)

You should have nice tan then hey :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Hey Jim you old pirate! Looks like the list is a good place to begin testing... when you coming down for a game?

Mic


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:25 pm 
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I like the changes to the Coterie BTS rule, I never found it necessary.

I'm the only player I know of who regularly uses an Executioner so I will test that with great interest, it does need a tweak. It would be really helpful if you could put the self planet fall rule explanation on the reference sheet.

I really like the +1 engage for Partisans too, Kabal spam was a risk.

Some of the upgrade changes (compared to the EUK list might be a bit too powerful.

Talos are still not at all useful, I took them once mistakenly thing they could go in a Slave Bringer.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Hiya,
Cheers for the feedback so far. See you in August Mic! I doubt we will have time for a game though. Maybe we could skip Castle Assault 17 karaoke and go for a playtest.

Thanks for the feedback Rugll. I will be interested to see how you find the executioner changes. WRT the talos they are a delicate proposition and i didn't want to make them too strong. The changes are now they are available in units of 8 and have an extra attack, giving you an 8 strong unit with 16 attacks (8 mw) that are fearless with RA. I think they will be somewhat useful in the list, especially with the addition of portable webway from the epicuk last. But keen to hear any other changes that you may want to suggest.
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:20 am 
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I think the Dark Eldar Splinter Cannon should have a range equal to their Eldar cousins Shuriken Cannon. In 40K both weapons have a range of 36", which when converted to Epic becomes 30cm. Therefore I think the DE Splinter cannon should also be 30cm range.

Someone said to me, or quoted in a post in the past that the aircraft have an inbuilt -15cm range. Upon looking at the Alaitoc Craftworld and other Craftworld lists, I find this not to be the case. The Eldar nightwing intercepter and Phoenix Bomber have the same range for their Shuriken cannon as their ground based units like the Cobra, Wave Serpents and Scorpion.

Perhaps this can be addressed in the DE list to increase the range to 30cm, or otherwise get all the Eldar lists changed so all their Shuriken Cannon only have range 15cm.

The Flotillas/Ravagers now only get a single ravager as an upgrade. I will have to repaint the 3 extra ravagers I now have, as I had organised my formations with 6 ravagers each, to decrease the chance that they will be broken and then lose units to BP (as they are not fearless). I still think the Ravagers are one of the most brittle and easily destroyed formations in the whole list, other than the warriors or coterie when they are transported in raiders only. The light vehicle rule means they get pounded by everything, especially a lot of indirect artillery. Only their plethora of range 30cm (which does limit their usability) weapons makes them a viable choice from those you have to take from the Kalabite Core formations.

I see you have removed the ability to get one shadowfield back at the end of the turn, providing you still have an active shadowfield on the unit. Is this intentional, or is this just something you forgot to transfer over from the current rules? It means that some units like Barges and Vessels of Pain will become more vulnerable, and still cost the same points value.

The barge of Pleasure has been the unit most affected by the changes. I have compared the proposed changes to the current NetEA list stats and rules, and the current EpicUK list rules. For a 25 point drop the barge loses its ability for transported units to fire from it, it also is now easier to destroy with a single lucky crit roll which will destroy the 3DC unit. Before in both cases it took 2 successful crits to kill it off (normally by that stage it was already blown up by weight of fire I grant you). Add in the fact that it can not regenerate its shadowfields, and it has lost more than it has gained with the decrease in cost.

The unit needs something more to make it worthwhile to take it. Either allow transported units to still fire from it, or give it Reinforced armour, or change the shields so they once again regenerate.

Also you mentioned you were going to give the DE a ground based AA unit. The Barge of Pleasure would be the best unit for this. I propose that up to 2 barges per formation be allowed to be upgraded their Splinter Cannon with an Long Barrelled Splinter cannon for 25 points per unit upgraded. The stats could be something like range 45cm, AP5+/ AA5+. The added cost for this upgrade should keep the number of units upgraded down to a minimum.

The 2 changes I do like are (1) Partisans add 1 to their activation roll if they are performing an engage action, and (2) Mandrakes can now be used as garrison formations. This second change makes the 2 units of mandrakes I have a more viable option, and makes more sense as the Mandrakes do like to roam about in dark places like ruins ahead of the army making surprise assaults on the enemy.

Removing Sybarites and re-introducing the Succubus from the UK list means competitive lists will have less character upgrades because of the 25 points difference, however the Succubus does also have inspiring where the Sybarite only had the Leader ability. I am neither happy nor unhappy about this. You just need to select which formations you want to get in close combat, and they get the Succubus added.

Thanks for clearing up a lot of the silly upgrade options that did seem out of place, and for rewording the transport rules to include the "Not all units in a formation require a transport vehicle" quote. This has fixed up a lot of rule interpretations and confusion.

I hope you consider my feedback objectively. I am not trying to make the Dark Eldar into an elite close combat or hit and run Craftworld Eldar list, nor am I trying to emulate the Spacemarine lists. I am simply looking at the changes made verse the points cost changes, and determining how this has made certain units less cost effective, unusable or too powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:32 am 
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Just a thought from reading the test list rules for the Portable webway, and the questions/ feedback from previous posts?

I think the answer is " war engines can not use the portable webway even if they have the walker ability", however here is the question: Can Perditors a DC2 WE walker use the Webway portal?

If yes, this provides them with a better way to get into cover mid table without using a triple move, and thus allowing them to shoot the turn they arrive. It also means enemy indirect artillery fire from say Eldar/Guard/ traitor Guard/ or even Marines, or direct fire from units like Shadowswords/ Heavt tank companies can not kill them straight up, or break them (and keep them broken) if they win the Strategy roll and target the Perditors first thing.

Even after 8 months of Epic Armageddon gaming, I still am a little rusty with the rules. Not enough time to read them, and too many gaming / Role Play system in the garage.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:22 am 
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It looks like Talos can not be transported in the Slavebringer Assault Boats any more. They used to be able to be carried in the Slavebringer with a Talos = to 2 normal infantry units.

This means the tactic that many DE players (myself included) used, where we dropped off a formation of 4 Talos in to combat, or right on top of an unprotected enemy objective has to be done with the (now more vulnerable than it was before even though it is 150 points cheaper) more expensive option - an Executioner landing module. Risk bringing in 6 Talos in a craft that could be shot down with 4 AA shots providing the enemy crits you. You can feasibly lose 6 Talos along with the Executioner. A total of 825 points if the die roll badly. Losing only 425 points, the Slavebringer and 4 Talos is much less a loss to a DE player.

Can we get the ability for units to fire from the Venom and the raider? They are suppose to be open topped. The current list allows units mounted in raiders to shoot. Both these transports have an inbuilt weakness to counteract the bonus of troops shooting from them, they are LV, so AP and AT weapons can target them.

I can forsee many of the DE list will now be filled with Flotillas, a Single Coterie, a couple Syndicates, some with Barges as transports, some aircraft for AA, maybe a titan, and then the rest will be Mandrakes, Wyches, vessels of Pain and Reavers

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:26 am 
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Deb, i play the EpicUK list and from what i gather from your posts we play them very differently. You seem to think the DE list is a bit weak? I would argue it's one of the stronger lists around, especially if you play them as an air-assault/webway-assault list.

And this focus on shooting attacks in your posts is something i have a hard time understanding. This list is an assault list and shouldn't be able to fire at things from longer ranges. If it could do that also the list would be crazy good!

So ground based AA and longer weapon ranges should not be implemented in this list. That would take away all the weaknesses of it. And them aim is to produce balanced lists, not über-powerfull ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:51 am 
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I see your point, and understand that you look at the list as a close assault list. However, if it is a close assault based list then should not the Wyches which are troops in the 40K codex be added to the Syndicates section as a core choice?

I have always looked at the Dark Eldar as masters of both the close assault strike and also the rush in, shoot/snipe and run away tactic. Especially in 40K. I have found in 40K they are very good at this. My point of views as to the range of the basic Splinter cannon is still valid when comparing it to 40K, and also the Eldar equivalent weaponry in Epic (Shuriken Cannon).

Also my request to reintroduce the ability for the Talos to be able to air assault from a slavebringer is also then a valid point. It is already in the current EpicEA list. Although it can be powerful, I have found it can also backfire, as many Space commanders have when they sent in their Terminators from their Thunderhawk Gunships. I was bringing up the point to see if the change was intentional or just an oversight, and adding the request in just in case it was intentional.

I only mentioned the ground based AA because Jim said he would be looking at introducing it into the list, and offered a suggestion of how he could do this without making the option far too cheap an upgrade, or too over powered.

In 40K Eldar are one of the most powerful armies, with the ability to tailor the list to close assault, fearless units with powerful ranged and close combat weapons, lots of skimmer tanks, powerful jetbikes/vypers, psykers, a wide range of powerful aircraft, and specialist units. In 40K, they do not seem to have Artillery for their standard forces, but in Epic they get a good amount of it with their Night Spinners and Void Spinners, and at longer range than the DE. I accept this, and the fact that Eldar get Farseers as an inbuilt upgrade for their basic Warriors, their Wraithguard and WraithLord formations. I accept that they needed to represent the abilities of the Farseers, hence the triple activation ability.

The Dark Eldar on the other hand have their Wyches poor armour, but can be good in close combat. Warriors who in 40K get good ranged weapon upgrades to handle both tanks and infantry, transports that are easily taken out, but troops can shoot from them, and assault from them. They have good hard hitting units like the Talos, and have strange weird units like Warp Beast, Mandrakes, and Haemonculi that although they are slow, still have the ability to hold their ground in close combat. The DE also have good aircraft, and because GW/Forgeworld never gave DE any real love, we never saw any really decent tanks, like the barges, vessels of pain, executioner or slavebringer until they developed a list for Epic. In basic 40K, I have faced off or used more DE armies that are based on the mobile shooting platforms backed up by wyches in venoms to finish off the enemy once they have been shot up a lot by the other units. In Epic DE can triple move and still provide support to an engage action or provide a crossfire bonus. This is to reflect their particular style of fighting where they shoot from their extremely fast but vulnerable light transports, providing suppression/ cover fire against enemy while other units assault the enemy. They only get 2 partisans per Kalabite formation, where some like the Eldar and other lists get 3 support choices.

Although they get 5 options for taking TK weapons, these are generally mounted on units that cost an arm and a leg to purchase, or are part of the list where they can not be more than 1/3 of the army. The TK weapons ranges are generally shorter than most armies except for maybe Tyranids, and Orks. These units can take TK weapons: Vessel of Pain, Executioner, Tormentor Titan, Razorwing Bomber, and the Space Ship. I understand why this has been done. The extra limiting thing to make the army not as powerful as others is that the TK weapons are TK(1) only, so their effectiveness is limited when compared to units like Shadowswords, certain Titan Weapons, or Eldar weapons and so on.

Large formations can not be employed by the DE. Their list limits the number of Infantry, or other units they can take. Where they can take larger formations, it costs and arm and a leg, and usually this make the formation the BTS. Other armies like Guard, Nids, Orks, and even some Eldar formations can out number their enemies basic formations for the same cost, and with better or equally good weaponry outmatching them in either weapons range, the number of weaponry they are able to shoot, or the number of attacks in close combat/ FF. Hence why DE are a mobile shooting hit and run army striking in close combat where they can soften the enemy up and overwhelm them before running off.

I can not see a way of introducing 40K special rules or war gear like combat drugs or the power from pain rule into Epic, which really make DE better in close combat, or help them survive a bit longer against enemy ranged attacks. Thus I will not try.

Obviously we play the army in Epic and 40K differently, and I am providing feedback from my gaming point of view, from recent 40K gaming experience.

To say the DE list is far too powerful is in my opinion not really correct. The list has good points and also has a decent amount of inbuilt weakness.

What I have been talking about are (1) the inconsistencies between the current list and the proposed changes where the list of weapons, rules, stats such as shields and DC lost are too many for account for such a low points reduction, and (2) inconsistencies between other armies weapon ranges in 40K transferred to Epic and that of the DE armies 40K to Epic, where it has not been carried across correctly. In reality a range 30cm AP weapon like the Shuriken cannon is comparable to the Space marines Heavy bolter range 30cm and the Dark Eldar Splinter cannon which has the same range to both of them in 40K, but not in Epic.

Hopefully you can see my point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Hi Deb,
Thanks for your reply. From our conversations at cancon i know you are passionate about Dark Eldar and i appreciate your efforts here to convey your passion and your point of view. I think some of your suggestions, such as open topped may be worth including along the line. However, I intend to test the current version of the list for a couple of months at least without modification.
I hear you on GBAD. I would like to have tested a ground based AA unit in the barge, but the majority of community opinion was against it. So alas it too goes onto the trash heap of good idea fairy corpses... may they rest in pieces.

Shooting ranges. The reduction in shooting range is a deliberate design concept of both the net ea and euk lists. I intend to keep it, as increasing all inf to range 30cm and allowing mad gangsta drive-bys from their skimmers would too dramatically alter the dark eldar dynamics, and increase sydicate spam.

The barge has had a price reduction and a shadowfield added. It is still not super appealing, but alt least it may be taken now.

The slave bringer change is to bring it in line with the euk list. Personally i agree. If i was a loadmaster on a dark eldar aircraft the last thing i would want on board is a wild drugged up angry beast of an infantryman - let alone a talos!

I would encourage you to write a few lists and play a few games with this list and see how it goes.

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:03 pm 
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May the play-tests be plentiful (so we can go get on those variant lists! ;) )

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:46 pm 
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OK I made up a test list. Based on all the new stats and rules, and worked out which formations, units and upgrades are the most viable, and which are the worst options to take for what you are paying for, as well as mordotens quote that Dark Eldar are an assault based army, I have dropped all the Kalabite Warriors, Barges of pleasure. Perditors, Vessels of Pain, Scourges, Voidravens and the Slave Bringer (too expensive for a 1 trick pony that can not deliver my fearless walkers where I need them). I tried to look at Hellions, but Reavers are a better formation for the cost. Wyches get more upgrades, so they can have larger formations, so I took 1 of them. The Coterie is mandatory, so I boosted it to make it last longer. The 2 Flotillas are there because they are the least crappy of the (Must Take in order to get the better Partisan formations) Kalabite formations, but I gave them no upgrades, as they seem to die off too quickly anyway. I thought about mandrakes, but even with the invulnerable save, and some special rules, the Reavers are far better with their 4+ save and a move of 40cm.

I ended up with a list that is basically in your face close combat orientated with fast moving jetbikes - 3 in fact. 2 boosted numbers close combat infantry formations (Wyches and Incubi), a close combat fearless vehicle walker formation that can be dropped off via portable wraithgate a couple of the cheaper fighter plane formations just for AA, and the Titan. It is there for the BTS, and to provide some TK (1) weaponry, and is the only war engine that is not automatically destroyed from a successful critical roll.

Individuals – 50
50 – Portable Wraithgate

Kalabite Formations – 875
425 – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi, 2 Wyches, 2 raiders, 4 Venoms
225 – Flotilla – 4 Ravagers
225 – Flotilla – 4 Ravagers

Partisans Formations – 1225
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
300 – Wyches – Sucubbus , 6 Wyches, 1 raider, 4 Venoms
325 – Talos - 5 Talos

Spacecraft Titans and aircraft (max 1/3) – 900 points
500 – Tormentor Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan (BTS)
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters


This is not what I would normally have taken for a DE army. I normally have a couple jet bikes, an equal mix of ravagers and warriors, talos or wyches, vessels of pain or the titan, and lots and lots of aircraft for AA.

I can see this army getting shot up by large enemy formations on over watch sitting in cover with range 45cm infantry weapons, lots of indirect artillery breaking and then finishing off formations trying to get cover as they move up, large tank formations, or reaver or warlord titans destroying whole formations as they move from cover to cover, lots of ground based AA destroying my CAP, and other than the titan, the only ranged shooting units - the ravagers - that I have will get killed off within the first turn.

Eldar will outmatch me in close combat with their Wraith guard, Wraith lords, and specialist close combat units. Their many skimmers including jetbikes will make the incubi and wyches less useful in engagements, and their triple activation will mean they can organize to gang up on my formations better. Guard will out number me, as should Nids and Orks. I might have a chance against marines if they do not employ their own form of teleport/aerial assault list, but that is not likely.

I should lose the Raven fighters by turn 2 even with the 4+ save. One army at CanCon had 2 formations of 3 Hydra, plus thunderbolts, so lots of ground based AA and aircraft are fairly normal in the Australian community. One of the Eldar players had as an example 2 Firestorms (like hydras), 3 Nightwing interceptors, and 2 Phoenix fighter Bombers and his Revenant titans inbuilt AA. I think he also had a Vampire raider. The is a lot of AA in one army.

No wonder I am paranoid about enemy AA and ground attacking aircraft. I tend to either lose the aircraft, or not get them on due to too many blast markers.

I did make up a 2nd list based on the formations I have to take and the ones that are the most cost effective, but I consider this a spam list.

Kalabite Formations – 800
350 – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi, 2 raiders, 2 Venoms
225 – Flotilla – 4 Ravagers
225 – Flotilla – 4 Ravagers

Partisans Formations – 1200
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers
200 – Reavers – 6 Reavers

Spacecraft Titans and aircraft (max 1/3) – 1000 points
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters
200 – Razorwings – 2 Razorwing fighters

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