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Dark Eldar Army List 2017

 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Youve been running the titan most games deb to give the ground AA?

Ive been trying to play with out it. Air assault dark eldar wont fit the titan in. His CC are ea+3tk too not 2 tkd3s

Also jinking aircraft that already have a 4+ save doesnt do anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:02 am 
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After playing some with EpicUK version and having played against this list (Norto over Vassal) i have a few comments:

1. Why do warriors get a 6+ save? Shouldent they be as brittle as Eldar guardians? They're already better i CC (5+ compared to 6+) AND get free Raiders (with a great 4+ save to soak up hits) with them. I think the 6+ armour is not warranted for their cost. They should be glass cannons.

2. I'm not to sure about the +1 to engage either. Dark Eldar is an assault list and engages is what they will be initiating as often as they can. This +1 makes that very easy to accomplish. Just don't know if that buff is needed.

3. The added Desolator to the Barge of Pleasure seriously upguns it. Did you raise the cost of it also? With the new weapon it's a shooting threat to both Inf and vehicles.
Granted I wouldn't use the Barge much in games when raiders are free for what they bring so if the idea where to make the Barge being used more this could help. It's just alot of firepower for 100 points...

Other than that i think this list is lightyears better than the current approved one and I'll gladly participate in doing 6 battle reports to get it approved if at least 1 of my suggestions got discussed/used/thought about.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:32 am 
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The 6+ save thing for the warriors, was because we had a semi-heated discussion over the uselessness of Kalabite Warriors over ravagers as a core formation. The discussion also discussed moving Wyches to the core formations section, but this was voted down.

I said I would not use warriors in raiders when ravagers which although they cost more, put out more fire power, and could handle both infantry and vehicles, and also could take a Dracon.

The offer to up their armour was made when armies like Squats, Orks and some others were compared. based on their relevant fire power, numbers and cost.

My only proposal for change regarding the warriors was to allow the infantry transported on raiders and venoms to be able to shoot from them. This was also turned down.

As to the Barges of Pleasure. People were not using them, and the cost of the Barge was reduced, but the Desolator was removed. Later people complained about the lack of fire power from the Barges and wanted it back, but the points cost for them did not go back up to 125 points each.

I think the +1 to engage actions is a great idea. Orks get their +1 to engage and double actions. This gives them a 1+ to activate unless they have blast markers. Since Dark Eldar do not have the benefit that Eldar have of Farseers and Spiritseers who allow a 3rd activation, and most of their vehicles are either light vehicles or expensive war Engines (admittedly with night shields), Dark Eldar who have for the most part very short ranged weapons compared to normal Eldar, they need something to help them get their much needed engagement assaults off.

As a shooting army Dark Eldar seen to suck. A general lack of D6 or D3 TK, and limited TK(1), maximum range for their best standard tanks and troops is 30cm. They have decent saves of 4+, but Eldar have a re-rollable 5+ save, and LV can be shot at by all weapons. Eldar have Storm Serpents which can bring whole formations on the table to overwhelm and area. Dark Eldar have a 1 off use 50 point Wraith gate. If the character you secretly designate is killed off, then that is lost.

The Pros and Cons are about equal.

I could live with the infantry losing the 6+ save, and even having the Barge of Pleasure being a little more expensive. I think the +1 to engage actions is needed. It perfectly compliments the dark Eldars only other real benefit that no-one else seems to get, where they can tripple move and still provide support fire to engagements.

This does make Dark Eldar a one trick pony - engagements and close assaults. Do not bother with shooting matches where the move-shoot-move is used, you will eventually get out ranged, out gunned by other armies that just sit on overwatch, or move to get a good field of fire.

I do love the Tormentor though. The only ground based AA unit in the list. I had suggested that the Barges get one of their weapons adjusted do it provided a single AA 5+ shot, but the added cost, and the nay-sayers said it was not thematic. If I were to face off against and enemy force of Orks with lots formations of Fighta-Bombers in it, or even say Ferals with lots of Wyrd boyz attached to their Orkasaurus's, my expensive DE fighters would last 1 round of flying, 2 if I were lucky.

I use the Tormentor to provide an AA envelope for my broken formations, which usually get targeted by enemy strafing runs.

I love the current list.

My suggestions, which would hopefully match your views,

1 Remove the save from the Kalabite warriors, but allow them to shoot from the Venoms and raiders. You can still unload them into woods and ruins if needed to hold objectives.

2 Make Wyches a core formation choice, so we do not have to take the crappier Warriors or the more expensive ravagers all the time. The army as you said is more of an assault based army.

3 Up the cost of the Barge of Pleasure to 125 points, but update their long barrelled splinter cannons which have a limited FXF arc to also have AA5+ in its profile.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:59 am 
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The argument that the DE is crap at shooting is the other way for me. They should be crap at shooting! This is Epic, not 40K. Shooting symbolizes laser cannons, auto cannons, artilelry, titan weapons etc. All smaller arms are handled in FF-engagements. A 40K battle is a FF-engagment in epic (with the exception of the really big guns).
DE should be a super-assault themed army, not a shooty army at all! Thats reserved for Tau, IG and titans. When i read your posts Deb and how you look at the game it seems that we view Epic very, very differently.

DE is a ultra fast, super assault themed, glas cannon army. Thats their nische. Their assault capacity is awesome and they need plenty of downsides/weaknesses to balance that considering assaults is the key thing in this game (Not shooting!). I like that they lack ground AA, die if you even look at them and can't really sit back and fire at their opponents from afar. Thats exactly how they work in the fluff/lore and the design of this list is excellent to force a lightning raid kinda style of playing. DE should have a hard time dealing with bigger units (WE:s) and playing the attrition game, it would be a flawed design if they didn't.

That being said i think your some suggestions are pretty good:

1. Don't mid the shooting out of raiders really, it is very situational. As long as the armour goes.

2. No way Wyches should be core options! They are specialized troops with really good abilities (infiltrator & first strike) and should not be allowed to be spammed. The list is supposed to be balanced, not super good! Core options should be standrad units with no too many extra rules/abilities.

3. Yes, for 125 points i could live with the upgunning of the BoP.Burt no way they should have AA-shots! Lack of ground AA is a key DE weakness and should not be mitigated. A balanced list is made with strengths and weaknesses. This suggestions would take away one of thoose weaknesses. DE should not be able to cover all bases.

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Last edited by mordoten on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:01 am 
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Completely agree with that

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Likewise. The best thing about dark eldar is the dilemma they create for the person playing them about when to commit to risky assaults. If they have better core or better ranged fire or even worse, ground flak, you lose all of this. Also, on a thematic point, squats and orks were traditionally high toughness races so the 6+ armour reflects that. DE should be a total glass cannon.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:50 pm 
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How close is this list to being tournament legal? Do you need battle reports? If so, with any particular builds?

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:37 pm 
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Why are the 2 formations -not designed for close assault - used as bulk of the core formations? The Coterie is a CC formation, however it is limited to 1. The Flotillas, and the warriors are pretty much designed for either moving around and shooting with mid range weapons, or moving around unloading, and providing a small amount of FF support before reloading onto their transports and getting out of there.

If Dark Eldar are a fast moving close combat army, then their close combat units should make up the core of their force, with the support forces being the shooting formations. Otherwise it does not seem logical. Why hamper what many say are a dedicated assault based list by making the list have to take units that are not specifically designed for close combat?

I would swap the Wyches for the Ravageres, and make the venom and raider transports so you can shoot from, to make the troops more durable in engagements. You get your dedicated assault army, and can then add in the ranged support formations to provide some support. That seems logical.

It is as though you are trying force the dark Eldar player to either min/max on warrior formations to restrict their assault tactics, and further weaken their force by making the assault units support choices rather than core choices (for what you say is a close assault army). The lack of ranged TK (D3), and longer weapon ranges has been done to force the dark Eldar player to design their list around close assault. Enemy Titans can overwhelm a DE list with the few formations that can get TK (1) being very expensive with comparatively shorter ranges than their enemies weapons dedicated anti-War Engine weapons.

I know why you have limited the weapons. They would just become super fast speed daemons that move-shoot-move and shoot from long range, and could take out both Titan legions, Knights and guard artillery armies easily. But why have you stopped them from becoming a close assault army? So many people on this thread have argued that Dark Eldar are a close assault army, but refuse to allow Wyches into the core choices.

If you did this to other army lists restricting them to the bare minimum then - Imperial Guard tank and artillery companies would become support choices with Infantry platoons as their only core choice. Similarly Space Marines should only have Tacticals and Scouts as their core choices with all the other Marine choices being support and any non marines allocated to the 1/3 slot.

Most of the other armies I have seen seem to limit the core to just basic infantry and their transports, Necrons, Tyranids, the current legal Tau, and Squats. The Marines, Imperial Guard and Chaos Marines all seem to have armoured vehicles or even artillery companies as core choices in addition to their non-specialised troops.

Marines are supposed to be flexible, as are the basic black legion chaos marines - to a lesser degree - who strangely do not get their thematic hordes of cultists as core choices. Guard are supposed to have large armies of tanks infantry and artillery only in certain armies such as Baron Siege Masters, and Dedicated Tank Regiments while Dark Eldar are supposed to have super fast formations of wyches, and raider mounted warriors zooming around shooting from their transports, and close assaulting the enemy, with some support against tanks from their Talos and Ravagers support and other support close combat from the Reavers and Hellions. Again it does not make sense to me why the Wyches are relegated to the support forces, and the warriors can not shoot from their open-topped flimsy raiders and venoms.

An alternately and probably a better more thematic change and hopefully one that most will agree is still balanced but still orientated to an assault based army:

Do as stated just before - to keep the warriors as part of the core, then an alternative change to keep it close to what GW have had in every 40K codex made for Dark Eldar move the Wyches to the core as well. Both warriors and Wyches who should be able to shoot from their flimsy fast easily shot down venoms and raiders.

However replace the main weapon of the raider to the weapon it comes with as basic in the codex - the Disruption cannon. Its range would still be 30cm, but it would be AP5+/AT6+ making it more versatile. Raiders and Scourges would be the dedicated non WE anti-vehicle units. The range of the standard Splinter cannon which is range 36" in 40K should be increased from 15cm to 30cm to be more realistic, and promote the use of basic warriors more.

Moving Flotillas to the support choices should make the shooty army idea less likely as currently you are forced to choose between flotillas and warriors. This way you can still have a balanced list designed more for close combat. Warriors would then be used to soften up the enemy, or move in closer to also provide FF support for the Wyches before they attack. Other dedicated support forces designed for assault such as reavers, hellions and Talos would join the assault, and be a common sight. Fearless formations of Wracks Haemonculi and grotesques would be dropped in to hold objectives via slavebringers or through the portable wraithgate.

If these changes were made, I personally would take as many warriors as I would Wyches, and some of the heavier WE like VoP, along with Aircraft and either the Tormentor or Executioner along with slavebringers and Ravagers. In each battle you would see people mixing support forces like Scourges, Perditors, Wracks/Grotesques and Haemonculi, Talos, Barges of Pleasure, and warp beasts trying out different combinations.

I would not mind adding Beast handlers and their varied beasts like warp beasts, and razor wings, however this may be difficult to add in a mix of beasts and still provide a fast strike formation. You might even reword the special rule to state that support formations get the +1 to engage actions to make it less likely that core formations automatically get to engage if they have blast markers.

I agree remove the 6+ save to kalabite warriors, increase the barges of pleasure cost to 125 points, but only if you make the changes I suggested in swapping the Flotillas and the Wyches and increasing kalabite warriors weapons range to 30cm, and allowing raiders and venom the be shooting platforms to provide support and make the troops less vulnerable to being cut to pieces in CC/FF engagements.

Make the list designed so that it becomes a dedicated assault list, not a list where you must take ranged forces. before you can purchase the assault forces.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:12 pm 
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I know you're working on a Sisters style list at the moment Deb, but your suggestions for DE really merit an alternate "Wytch" list, not messing with the Kabal.
I'd say from talking to Jim at Cancon it's only a test or two away from approved.. or it may just be that work has him so busy he's not been back online to finalise it. Either way, don't go messing.

Also - I strongly suggest you take another look at Norto's Cancon list from this year if you think the current Kabal list doesn't give good cc options. I think it just doesn't build the way you want it to, which is why you might want to consider offering up a second Wytch based list for consideration. If you do, I put my hand up now to help test it.

Personally I'm keen to try the new Harlies with my DE for an assault based build, but that's going to have to wait a few months due to life..


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:03 am 
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fruitbat wrote:
Also - I strongly suggest you take another look at Norto's Cancon list from this year if you think the current Kabal list doesn't give good cc options.


Yes, ‘Norto’s’ list ;-)

Totally agree, it’s a great army for CC units. Incubi, wyches, talos & scourges are great in this role. All the serious assault units in the army are CC specialists with multiple good deployment options (gate, raiders, slavebringers).

The list plays really well on the table, is super thematic (ie total glass cannon), and is, for me, one of the best designed in all of epic. Agree, we just need to get this over the line rather than going back to the drawing board.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:21 am 
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fruitbat wrote:
I'd say from talking to Jim at Cancon it's only a test or two away from approved.. or it may just be that work has him so busy he's not been back online to finalise it. Either way, don't go messing.


Yeah, he has spoken to me about going for approval, and i have given the nod..But I'm waiting on the approval report to look over it and then I will pass it up to the board for them to vote on...Oh the report not a paragraph and links to 18 games..it a report :-)

I also gather life has gotten in the way...

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:48 am 
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You guys sure you want to get it approved with 6+ armour on the warriors and tormentor executioner only costing 500 points (which allow for 2 at a 3K game)?

Again, loose the armour on warriors, raise the price on executioner/tormentor to 550, raise price on Barges of pleasure to 125 after being upgunned andalso make Incubis always the BTS then your there IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:45 am 
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mordoten wrote:
You guys sure you want to get it approved with 6+ armour on the warriors and tormentor executioner only costing 500 points (which allow for 2 at a 3K game)?

Again, loose the armour on warriors, raise the price on executioner/tormentor to 550, raise price on Barges of pleasure to 125 after being upgunned andalso make Incubis always the BTS then your there IMO.


It doesn't mean it will get approved.. I have given the nod to start the process so speak and that could have be made clearer in the last post....That is

1) Write the report and that doesn't mean it will get pass me yet to the board..I want see the report, if i think there are issues, then I will rise them and any concerns rise in the thread..We have another chat..If happy with reply..next step
2) Then I get Tiny-Tim to look over the report and he will do the same and will included any issues rise and reply's to those....If get pass him,
3) It will go to the board for the vote...

I have done it this way for the last couple of approvals....

If Jim thinks he is ready, than I trust him and yes I have meet the guy in person too, which helps...Like you trusting the people on the NDC...

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:44 am 
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mordoten wrote:
You guys sure you want to get it approved with 6+ armour on the warriors and tormentor executioner only costing 500 points (which allow for 2 at a 3K game)?

Again, loose the armour on warriors, raise the price on executioner/tormentor to 550, raise price on Barges of pleasure to 125 after being upgunned andalso make Incubis always the BTS then your there IMO.


Damn sure.
2 big toys at 3K is a nice option for some games, and depending on the rest of the list and circumstance can be a reasonable choice. Or it can be hit with the DBAD stick on an as-needs basis.
The barges went up and down throughout the testing. Please no more messing.

and yeah... I'd love for the incubi to always be the BTS /sarcasm :{[]
Bad enough that I have to risk the supp comm every time I want a cc unit to fight armoured opponents, tossing away the BTS on that gamble as well would just be crap.

6+ armour on the warriors is really neither here nor there. I've played very similar lists with and without. I've liked the (rare) occasion when they make a save, but it's no deal-breaker. Given the LV nature of the list, it's kind of nice to get a few saves against soooooo much incoming fire. Will I cry if it goes? Only a little, quietly, in the corner ;)

The list as-is is really nicely done, perfect glass cannon. Kudos to Jim for getting it to this point. Please jsut let it get out of dev limbo and onto the next stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:52 am 
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Ok, right now the list is the EpicUK list but on steroids. Which makes it a tad too good.

DBAD is a really bad crutch that the rest of the world doesn't use so that should not be taken into consideration when developing the lists (see thread about it for arguments against it).

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