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Dark Eldar Army List 2017

 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:20 am 
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Borka wrote:
Was that just an unnecessary adjustment to bring the list in line with the epicUK list?


Yes it was. I talked to the guys at CanCon when they gave out the initial copies of the 2017 DE 1.0 list to proof read and pick up mistakes, and ask question about it.

The Net EA (raiders and tournamenmt pack) list has both Raiders and Barges of Pleasure that allow "units being transported can shoot". The changes were more of a cut and paste form the EpicUK list that was then modified to amalgamate the current NetEa list into it, especially the titan, and units not already listed in the EpiucUk list, Some units were lost but replaced by the NetUK equivelent - namely the raven for the razorwing, and the razorwing for the void raven.

Many, including myself thought the idea of removing the Desolator from the Barge of Pleasure, the removal or regeneration from the shadow fields should not have been done. However the shadow fields were increased on the Barge of Pleasure and the Titan but not the Vessel of Pain as a compromise for them not being able to regenerate.

We also thought removing the ability of troops to shoot from their transports - Raider, Venom and Barge of Pleasure was not the Dark Eldar style of fighting. In 40K I always shoot from them to help get them closer to the enemy, and protect them from enemy getting too close, and allow me to run my units away if needed. I was told that they did not want the DE to be too powerful by making them into"Drive by Gang list". They wanted to force DE into being a purely assault army like the EpicUK list. I can imagine them up against armies like Feral Orks with their DC6 Orkasaurus war engines and 13 units of troops on board. and an army having 5 of them ganging up in close combat on the Dark Eldar formations. I would be constantly running about hiding, trying to find a way to kill off the 3 Steam Gargants with their artillery cannons, and keep away from the fearless ork war engines transports.

I was told that they were going to initially remove the shooting from transport rule, in the initial test list, rather than make the initial list less susceptible to being picked apart by the UK players who loved their fully close assault armies. Later they would re-introduce it, and test if this made them too powerful, or made the list a little more survivable. That was what I was told at CanCon.

As discussed before Borka, they really are not overpowered.

They have little in the way of artillery at all, and certainly not a fast or cheap option for what you get.

They have transports and tanks for their compulsory tanks and transports that are easily taken out by enemy anti-infantry, and anti-tank weapons. Yes they are 5cm faster than Eldar falcons, etc, and have a 4+ save to compensate for everyone shooting at them with all their weapons. It does not help though.

Also DE have very little in the way of weaponry with a range longer than 30cm, and those they do get are on their more expensive units like war engines.

Their formations are very limited in size. Not as limited as Space Marines, but marines get ATSKNF so the double marker rules helps them not break when everyone else does.

There are other things I mentioned in a previous reply and Jimmy also added more later on. I feel their benefits do not outweigh their disadvantages. They are good against a few armies, and woefully underpowered against a whole lot more.

This is a test list. I am testing things out myself and have organised 3 games against armies being fielded by a mate of mine over the next month or so. I will be playing against BielTan Eldar, Iyanden Eldar, and Scions of Iron.

I hope to show as a result of the games prove how weak their transports are. How easily units once they are forced to travel on foot can be overwhelmed and killed off in both close combat and by being shot at by enemy with longer weapons ranges even if they manage to get to cover.

We just have to see how the list develops. Things might change for the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:50 pm 
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EUK don't play "fully assault" DE armies, players make extensive use of the fighter bombers dishing out 4BP of Lance! VoP and Space Craft are also featured heavily. My favourite strategy is an Executioner loaded with 2 VoP and 2 formations of Scourges doubling around (move-dismount-shoot-mount up- move), a deathstar which delivers a ludicrous volume of firepower and is extremely difficult to suppress or break.

The Executioner does probably need to be a little cheaper but I am concerned that decreasing its DC and transport will only make it less likely to be used. It's not difficult to destroy and it's almost always the BTS.

Is this another example of the difference between the AUS meta and the UK? The differences in how terrain and LoS are played makes a huge difference. LoS is more difficult to achieve in the UK making manoeuvre and assault the better option.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:38 am 
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Hey Deb,
Thanks for testing out the list. I have had two games with the list so far. One with a double executioner load out and am really happy with the synergies and the challenge the list presents.
I think your recollection of our discussion at CANCON is a bit hazy in some parts and definitely doesnt represent my views in others. Appreciate your constructive feedback though and interested in any ideas you still have about the list. Keen to get a base line and then advance ideas from there.
@rugll - i dont think its reflective of the meta.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:39 am 
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Would it be so bad to allow firefight from transports? This would represent the hit and run style and 40k shooting pretty well whereas shooting in epic represents something different.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:27 am 
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RugII wrote:
LoS is more difficult to achieve in the UK making manoeuvre and assault the better option.


I know EUK treats area terrain as having infinite height, so a titan could stand behind a small area of marsh and be hidden from everything on the other side even though with true line of sight, only its toes were covered.

In Australia we use true line of sight. If you can see the unit, you can shoot at it. If roughly 25% of it is covered from view, then you get -1 to shoot at it, unless you have IC weaponry. It might be played differently in the USA with the NetEA list. Generally there is enough terrain to hide behind, well on the maps I set up. I also make sure there is a gap of 25 to 30cm between each terrain area. I tend to set it up as it would be in real life with roads, creeks with bridges and crossing points, wooded areas, hills, and large ruined and still intact residential/ industrial areas. There are gaps, but you have ways to manoeuvre around and still avoid being seen by too many units.

Artillery (indirect that is) is the killer for Dark Eldar. It is a pity that artillery does not scatter as in real life. In Aus, we use terrain to get closer, snipe at the enemy, move more formations up, wear the enemy down and then assault. Once they are broken, use aircraft to finish them off (if they are not fearless), and then move to another area, leaving a formation or 2 to hold that area. The units left behind can withdraw if needed if the enemy decides to counter attack that area, and then I chose another area to overwhelm. Usually, the enemy are killed off, or reduced down in the number of activations they can do due to formations destroyed or broken.

At that point, I make a no holes barred assault on their Artillery, or their BTS, or some other critical thing like their Blitz. I like to make sure there are formations to hold my own objectives as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:32 am 
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Deb, that's not really how EUK play the terrain rules, it's abstract but not arbitrary.

It all depends on the 5 minute warm-up but area terrain such as woods and ruins would usually be classified as blocking LoS to everything except Skimmers, and lake or a marsh would be difficult or impassable terrain providing a cover save but would not block LoS.

As far as I'm aware this is how the rest of Europe play (I've played in several tournaments there), the US and Vassal, it is only Australia where true LoS is played. exclusively. This is going to put the Australian Epic playing community at odds with the rest of the world on many occasions, DE, by the looks of it Beil-Tan, and probably all Eldar lists in particular!

The EUK list has proved to be very popular and well balanced for a new list in the UK, it does not include as much variety as the NetEA list which is not uncommon and increasingly is becoming the only place the two lists diverge. I for one like this arrangement as it makes good use of the EUK stats and tournament experience and the imagination, experience, lore knowledge, and ambition of NetEA. I don't mind seeing such a major revision of DE even though I was one of the major contributors with Moscovian and Xisor on the original NetEA Raiders book when we were all still on the SG forum!


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:42 pm 
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Jim, I am trying to work out a list that combines barges of Pleasure and other transports such as venoms or raiders. How do I work out the points costs for these?

Example 1 barge of pleasure and either a raider or 2 venoms for a 6 unit formation of either incubi with archon, or a wyches and a succubus. The Coterie has and extra 2 incubi added as upgrades which normally makes the3rd raider cost 25 points more - if I took only raiders. However if I took the raider as part of the initial transport, and then purchased the barge of pleasure for an additional 100 points, does the raider the cost the additional 25 points or is it free? This need clarification for people writing up tournament lists.


The wyches get all 3 of their raiders for free so the barge of pleasure is a straight up 100 points transport upgrade. Another question that is unclear - can we even mix barges and other transports together in a formation, and do we have to decide which transport we want raiders/venoms, or barges?

It does say any combination of transports may be taken, but doe this refer only to the raiders and venom combination, or does that also include the barges as well?

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:25 am 
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First up. Please no discussion of terrain in this thread... down that path lies only destruction...

Deb,
RaW, the extra transport would cost you. If you are buying a barge you could say the extra stand goes in there, or if you prefer you could pay the extra 25... up to you. I dont see any need for clarification at this point.

One thing that might need to be addressed is that at present you can buy 3 raiders and a barge. As the barge is not effected by the transport rule. Im happy with this at the moment. As it allows you to field an empty barge and 3 raiders and just use the barge as a bit of a human shield.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:16 am 
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OK, but I can see that option of buying the barge/barges in addition to the raiders/venoms means as a means of buying the equivalent of whole heap of ravagers as upgrades, that do not take up the limit of 2 upgrades per formation. This literally means a formation that can get barges, has 3 upgrades, plus the transports they are riding in.

You get a nasty death star with up to 3 War Engines roaming attached to the formation and making it pretty much impossible to kill off (unless you use a lot of fire power). The 3 barges would cost 300 points, but that is a nice option to have. It costs the same as buying a succubus upgrade and a Vessel of Pain. It could mean 1 have less formation, but adds 9 shadow fields, and an extra 9DC to a formation. And who is to say you need to put the infantry units into the raiders, just put them in the barges, and have the raiders as extra wounds, or attacks in the FF. It would definitely make this formation the BTS, but also it would mean it is way harder to destroy than say the Tormentor Titan.

Many would consider that a bit OP. Being a De player myself and wanting all the advantages I can get to offset the plethora of disadvantages I have, even I consider this a bit OP.

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Last edited by Deb on Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:29 am 
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For your list to be legal you would need your units to start the game in the raider. As the raider/venom upgrade only allows you to include the if they are full of units.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:31 am 
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OK, but still the barges make that formation a nightmare to deal with. And once you have unloaded the infantry units to engage the enemy in CC/FF, they can then mount the barges once the engagement has been completed.

"EDIT" I have added the last bit after I made up a list to show what I mean. I know the list has a very low activation count, but it also has 3 formations that are very hard to kill off - the Titan, the Coterie, and the Wyches.

Kabals - 1250 Points
500 Points – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi, 2 Scourges, 3 Barge of Pleasure, 3 raiders
375 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 6 Ravagers
375 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 6 Ravagers
Partisans - 1050 Points
250 Points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reavers
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
600 points – Wyches – Succubus, 6 Wyches, 2 Beasts, 3 Barges of Pleasure, 3 raiders
Titans and AC - 700 points
500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan
200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:32 pm 
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I am playing against a mate of mine paulJam (from Wargamer.au) this afternoon. I am unsure what army he is taking, but I think it is an Eldar army possibly Biel-Tan or Iyanden. Anyway, am using this battle to test the new DE 2017 1.0 list and trying to see of the ability to SPAM Barges of Pleasure is too powerful an option.

With the current test list, you can buy a formation like Wyches, Kalabite Warriors (Sybdicate), or Incubi (Coterie), get their transports that are part of their basic cost - Raiders, upgrade any to Venoms at 25 point for the 2 Venoms (replaces 1 Raider), and then based on previous feedback from the list designer, you can then add in up to 3 Barges of Pleasure at 100 points each, and you do not have to have any unit mounted in these.

I think the Barges should replace the raiders you get, and then any unfilled transport slots can be taken up with your Venoms and Raiders. As it is you can ad the 3 Barges of Pleasure as a mobile shield for your other transports. Your units have to start off in the raiders or on foot, but they can then transfer to the Barges of Pleasure as part of a double move or something similar.

In a previous test game against another army that I play tested at home, it made an Incubi formation impossible to break, gave them an extra 9 x 4+ FF attacks, and the individual barges could be rotated so a new one led the pack each time one lost a shield or 2.

I think this is too powerful, being able to also field the Venoms and Raiders in addition to the Barges, but that is what this game is about. To prove my point, and balance the list out.

This is the list I am going to use today:

List 6 (8 activations) 40 Units
Core forces 1000 Points
675 Points – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi Units, 3 Barges of Pleasure, 2 raiders, 2 Venoms [BTS]
325 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
support forces 1300 Points
250 Points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reaver Units
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
550 points – Wyches – Succubus, 6 Wych Units, 3 Raiders, 3 Barges of Pleasure
1/3 slot 700 points
500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan
200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings.

I was going to use this other list, but maybe next time:

List 5 ( 8 Activations) 46 Units

Individuals 50 Points
50 – Portable Wraithgate
Core forces 900 Points
575 – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi Units, 2 raiders, 2 Venoms, 2 Barges of Pleasure [BTS]
325 – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
support forces 1050 Points
250 – Reavers – Sucubus, 6 Reaver Units
250 – Reavers – Sucubus, 6 Reaver Units
275 – Wyches – Sucubus , 6 Wych Units, 2 raider, 2 Venoms
275 – Talos - 5 Talos
1/3 slot 1000 points
500 – Tormentor Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan
500 – Tormentor Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan

I will take my camera, and take photos to help my battle report.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:20 am 
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Battle report added to Epic Armageddon section. link - viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32241

I had expected my opponent to use his newly 3d printed Eldar army, however he used the space marine army he used at CanCon.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:12 am 
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I have to reduce my play testing as the locals have lost interest in Epic, or in the case of one regular gamer, his arthritis is playing up, and he can not drive the 1 hour to get to my local gaming store with the pains in his hands and feet, and the idea of standing around for 3 hours gaming, he knows it would hurt badly.

As to the guys in Newcastle, I have a massive amount of bills for my car rego, green slip, pink slip, and so on, in the next few weeks, so all the extra money I would spend on fuel is going to those required bills. Add to that, my work hours and the fact that the RTA has limited opening hours, I have to get things done when I can on the weekends.

I will endeavour to get down to the local "The Hall of Heroes" and test games out between myself playing Dark Eldar and myself playing other armies.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:36 am 
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Thanks for all the games you have played so far.

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