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Epic UK Update - Codex Squats

 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:42 am 
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Monkeyboy wrote:
Re: Mole Mortars

1. They can make a crap player playing defensively get a draw against a better player
2. They can frustrate a better player trying to turn a draw into a win against a weaker player

Summed up they can help anyone draw but make it harder to get a big win. Assaults generally win games at the top level, not overwatch. As previously discussed they don't like assaulting units that suddenly appear.

Liking the boost to bog standard Warrior formations - that's a chunky unit to beat in assaults and break! Sometimes the least exciting changes can be amongst the most effective....


If squat UK was allowed at Cancon this year I'd be shoving so many mole mortars up people s asses they wouldn't be walking right for a week... For the points these things are unbelievable. Gaurd pay 250 points for manticores that can do this EVERY OTHER TURN and the only improvement is range.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:40 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:11 am 
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That's with sustaining! In the open Infantry would be on 3's and vehicles on 4s, but in cover it's 4's and 5s. I find it pretty unusual to get infantry out of cover mind you, their more likely haunt being a handy ruin or building.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:05 am 
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RichardL wrote:
That's with sustaining! In the open Infantry would be on 3's and vehicles on 4s, but in cover it's 4's and 5s. I find it pretty unusual to get infantry out of cover mind you, their more likely haunt being a handy ruin or building.

And very rare to find vehicles in cover at all (walker aside of course).

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:45 am 
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I'd be pretty confident to say that Squats won't be leading the charge up the championship table.

6bp disrupt looks great on paper, but the range is a bigger issue than you'd think, and there are a number of forces and units that don't give two hoots about your disrupt. If it was THAT good, you'd see people spamming manticore formations with guard for instance, or even heavily spamming Void Spinners. The reason they don't is because it doesn't win games. It can be situationally very useful, but you get serious diminishing returns after a while.

I'd quite agree with Rug - it's assaults and mobility ftw.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:30 am 
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Exactly, hence why death guard aren't a top tier army despite all the disrupt barrage!

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Last edited by StevekCole on Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:49 am 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
Even 6BP is still only hitting on 5s against vehicles and troops in cover
L

+1 if you sustain of course...


I think Steve54 was responding to them being used as an overwatch formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:56 pm 
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RichardL wrote:
I'd be pretty confident to say that Squats won't be leading the charge up the championship table.

6bp disrupt looks great on paper, but the range is a bigger issue than you'd think, and there are a number of forces and units that don't give two hoots about your disrupt. If it was THAT good, you'd see people spamming manticore formations with guard for instance, or even heavily spamming Void Spinners. The reason they don't is because it doesn't win games. It can be situationally very useful, but you get serious diminishing returns after a while.

I'd quite agree with Rug - it's assaults and mobility ftw.


Consider the game we played with my Vanaheim.

I had a lot of BP disrupt but all it takes is destroying one Valkyrie to start really messing up the ability to use the formation. Moving the guys into range, BMs having dramatic impacts on firepower, really not wanting to double, short range, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:03 pm 
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Apologies, massive thread hijack


Onyx wrote:
It also seems that some players don't fully understand the Support Craft rule. A Support Craft is not always visible from any part of the board (as planes are). Support Craft still follow the rules for Skimmers so if a Support Craft is nearer to any intervening terrain than the firing unit, it is not visible (something thst should be fairly easy to set up in deployment).


That's confused me. Specifically the phrase I've highlighted. I think it's the other way round: if the support craft is further from the intervening terrain it is not visible.



Just to clarify with a few (ascii) pictures (viewed as cross sections).

normal unit (NU) shooting normal unit:
NU_______|TERRAIN|_______NU

line of sight blocked regardless of the distances to terrain


If a skimmer (SK) is down it behaves like a normal unit.


If popped up, there is a shadow area behind terrain that it can't see. Specifically, if the target is closer to the terrain than the skimmer, it is in this shadow:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SK
N3__N2___N1__|TERRAIN|_________
......<--x-->.........<--x-->..
......SHADOW..........

    N1 (no LOS): is closer to the terrain than the skimmer, thus it is in the shadow. So there is no line of sight between the two
    N2 (in cover): is at equal distance, so there is line of sight but both count in cover
    N3 (LOS, aka visible): is outside the shadow (further than x from the terrain), so there is line of sight

That's all from the skimmer's perspective. But it sets up line of sight conditions that are symmetric (if I can see you, you can see me).


Support craft are skimmers that are permanently popped-up (with the specific exception for transport-skimmers being able to embark/disembark and transported units getting saves).


As I read the skimmer and support-craft rules, if we want to keep the support-craft safe we need to think about the above in reverse... from the perspective of normal units. That means keeping the support-craft as far away from terrain as possible:

..................VISIBLE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~S3~~~S2~~S1
NX_______|TERRAIN|_____________
..<--x-->.........<--x-->......

    S3 (LOS, aka visible): Normal unit X (NX) is, from S3's view, outside S3's shadow. So S3 can shoot NX and NX can shoot S3 (by symmetry)
    S2 (in cover): NX and S2 are equal distance. So both can shoot each other (with cover modifier)
    S1 (no LOS): NX is closer to the terrain than S1. So NX is in S1's shadow - S1 can't shoot NX which must mean NX can't shot S1 (by symmetry). There is no line of sight between these two


With support-craft, you want them to be further away from the terrain than the enemy units... then they can't see each other?

To summarise, you can effectively think of this as:
    Popped-up skimmers have blind spots within their weapon-range when shooting at normal units
    Normal units shooting at popped-up skimmers may have their weapon-range reduced


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:18 pm 
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I think you are right, mintroll


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:21 pm 
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me too, otherwise you wouldn't be able to overwatch stuff popping up to shoot you....

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:29 pm 
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Also I suppose a support craft will be visible from anywhere on the table to a unit that can pop up...

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:21 am 
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mintroll wrote:
Apologies, massive thread hijack


Onyx wrote:
It also seems that some players don't fully understand the Support Craft rule. A Support Craft is not always visible from any part of the board (as planes are). Support Craft still follow the rules for Skimmers so if a Support Craft is nearer to any intervening terrain than the firing unit, it is not visible (something thst should be fairly easy to set up in deployment).


That's confused me. Specifically the phrase I've highlighted. I think it's the other way round: if the support craft is further from the intervening terrain it is not visible.



Just to clarify with a few (ascii) pictures (viewed as cross sections).

normal unit (NU) shooting normal unit:
NU_______|TERRAIN|_______NU

line of sight blocked regardless of the distances to terrain


If a skimmer (SK) is down it behaves like a normal unit.


If popped up, there is a shadow area behind terrain that it can't see. Specifically, if the target is closer to the terrain than the skimmer, it is in this shadow:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SK
N3__N2___N1__|TERRAIN|_________
......<--x-->.........<--x-->..
......SHADOW..........

    N1 (no LOS): is closer to the terrain than the skimmer, thus it is in the shadow. So there is no line of sight between the two
    N2 (in cover): is at equal distance, so there is line of sight but both count in cover
    N3 (LOS, aka visible): is outside the shadow (further than x from the terrain), so there is line of sight

That's all from the skimmer's perspective. But it sets up line of sight conditions that are symmetric (if I can see you, you can see me).


Support craft are skimmers that are permanently popped-up (with the specific exception for transport-skimmers being able to embark/disembark and transported units getting saves).


As I read the skimmer and support-craft rules, if we want to keep the support-craft safe we need to think about the above in reverse... from the perspective of normal units. That means keeping the support-craft as far away from terrain as possible:

..................VISIBLE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~S3~~~S2~~S1
NX_______|TERRAIN|_____________
..<--x-->.........<--x-->......

    S3 (LOS, aka visible): Normal unit X (NX) is, from S3's view, outside S3's shadow. So S3 can shoot NX and NX can shoot S3 (by symmetry)
    S2 (in cover): NX and S2 are equal distance. So both can shoot each other (with cover modifier)
    S1 (no LOS): NX is closer to the terrain than S1. So NX is in S1's shadow - S1 can't shoot NX which must mean NX can't shot S1 (by symmetry). There is no line of sight between these two


With support-craft, you want them to be further away from the terrain than the enemy units... then they can't see each other?

To summarise, you can effectively think of this as:
    Popped-up skimmers have blind spots within their weapon-range when shooting at normal units
    Normal units shooting at popped-up skimmers may have their weapon-range reduced

Yeah, you're right.
I was thinking from the point of view of the support craft but writing from the ground units attacking PoV.
I got myself confused, sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Update - Codex Squats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:28 am 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:
Re: Mole Mortars

1. They can make a crap player playing defensively get a draw against a better player
2. They can frustrate a better player trying to turn a draw into a win against a weaker player

Summed up they can help anyone draw but make it harder to get a big win. Assaults generally win games at the top level, not overwatch. As previously discussed they don't like assaulting units that suddenly appear.

Liking the boost to bog standard Warrior formations - that's a chunky unit to beat in assaults and break! Sometimes the least exciting changes can be amongst the most effective....


If squat UK was allowed at Cancon this year I'd be shoving so many mole mortars up people s asses they wouldn't be walking right for a week... For the points these things are unbelievable. Gaurd pay 250 points for manticores that can do this EVERY OTHER TURN and the only improvement is range.

It might work at Cancon - I don't know. But I do know that it won't be that scary to many players on the UK tourny scene.

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