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Using Daemons

 Post subject: Using Daemons
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:16 pm 
Purestrain
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Reserved first post for summary, once the thread has run for a while.

Recapping from the "How to use Daemons" thread in the chaos section.  Stick to discussion of daemons and tactics.




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 Post subject: Using Daemons
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:20 pm 
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Frogbear:
Our Chaos player takes a unit with noise marines and sets it up on an objective (preferably in cover) with the help of the garrison rule when he can.

He then summons Daemonettes (Invulnerable, First Strike, AR4+,CC3+) and he is very hard to remove from that objective. You either throw alot at that unit or ignore the objective. The sheer number of units, along with their awesome assistance in CC/FF and good armour all round is a definite winner for such a task.


Evil and Chaos:
I use Daemons mostly on Terminator formations, in order to pump them up just before they Engage.

Daemonic Focus is largely useless unless you want to have a Forlorn Hope formation with a bunch of Nurgle Daemons (ungodly hard to kill/break), so Daemons are simply used as an ultra-mobile Engagement booster.

Chroma:
I don't spend any points on Daemons in a Black Legion army... those points are better spent on actual, "on-the-ground" formations/upgrades; Daemons are a much better investment in a LatD army.

I might buy a single Daemonic Focus to use in case I roll a "six" for a Strategy Roll.

Ginger:
I have seen up to 8x lesser daemons used, but never a Greater Daemon. The main issue being the cost of the various upgrades needed to gain (and potentially keep) the daemons is significant (~300-400) or the equivalent of 1-2 formations. Greater Daemons are a risk because their appearance is not guaranteed.

Generally they have two uses; as a force multiplier and as a shield. Raised just before an assault they can really savage an opposing formation while also not counting in resolution, a significant *double-wammy*. They can also be used to keep a BTS alive (can't they Steve54 :laugh: ) shielding the remaining unit(s) from being destroyed. However when using daemons, the original formations may be a bit weaker and prone to breaking if caught 'naked' so-to-speak.

Generally used to enhance Retinues and chaos terminators, they are also sometimes added to Forlorn hope to give a massive bite to a small formation.

nealhunt:
Raptors, Bikes and Forlorn Hope with Pacts are fast, relatively cheap and can summon/assault (not to mention bikes and raptors are decent on their own).  Lots of targets, any one of which can muster a decent threat until completely wiped out.  If you're close enough you can use the faction daemons, but Beasts are the most common.

Chosen teleport/summon is another previously mentioned use for daemons (and you can even usually get the heavier CC daemons into play).

As far as fitting it into an overall battle plan, I like playing BL with an area denial element and a maneuver element.  The area denial/main battle line is ~3 Retinues with Havocs or Noise Marines, at least 2 of which garrison on OW.  With a forward position and 45cm range, they can hit/prep a lot of the board.  Maneuver is the aforementioned Raptors, Bikes and Forlorn Hope.  Armor can provide more mobile firepower.  Chosen can provide a strong deepstrike as above.

The_Real_Chris:
Still you can't accuse my chaos lists of not being themed. I must say I'm warming the to idea of dropping 5 forlorn hopes on the enemy, attacking with demons and following up with retinues. Not a WE in sight to. I can't imagine they will last very long especially without ATSKNF, but still maybe in the last 10,000 years they will have seen enough comrades sent on these suicide missions to know a few tricks. Plus it would play really really fast, which could be useful if I'm stuck with vassel :)

That would be (I reckon all Tzentch)
150 Spaceship
850 5 x More Forlorn than you can imagine Hope + Pact + Dreadclaws
680 2 x Retinue + Rhinos + Pact
700 2 x Retinue + Oblitorator (one with the SC)
375 Retinue + Defiler + Pact (BTS)
240 12 x Lesser Demons

The somewhat faster alternative is
150 Spaceship
510 3 x Forlorn Hope + Pact + Dreadclaws (Mr T)
390 Retinue + Pact + Dreadclaws + Demon Prince (undivisable)
700 2 x Retinue + Oblitorator (indivisable)
410 4 Chosen + Oblitorator + Pact + Demon Prince (Mr T)
400 5 Chosen + Pact + Demon Prince (pop Khorne)
200 5 Raptors + Pact (pop Khorne or Mr T, unsure)
240 12 x Lesser Demons

Though the purity of the former above is very appealing :)
Prob be tzentch so lots of FF.
Okay so perhaps I am not fully getting my head round demons, but its a start :)

nealhunt's reply to TRC:
You have more Pacts than you need in both those lists.  You'll average 4 summons per Pact.  I figure that once you get to the range where you want to summon, only about half the formations will be functional, so something like a 2:1 daemon-to-pact ratio is about right as far as not having daemons on the sidelines or having unused pact capacity on the board.  In my experience, you usually lose daemons about as fast as you lose capacity to summon them so the ratio usually holds up.

Also, faster formations mean a greater likelihood that the formations will be able to make use of summoning.  If your pact formations are all fast/teleporter, you might want that ratio just a bit higher.

Currently, you have 7-8 pacts and only 12 LDs. I'd say drop a pact and add a daemon so you end up with 6-7 pacts and 13 daemons (and gain 5 points to spend if it's useful for something).

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 Post subject: Using Daemons
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:41 pm 
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I am worried I must say by having a formation there that could use demons, but finding its tough chedder no pact. Not a roblem for a 'normal' list where you have more control, but surely for a drop list or similar hand the initative to the enemy list, you want to have that pact frequency as a defensive measure?

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 Post subject: Using Daemons
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:15 pm 
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That's possible but I don't think it's likely.

Whatever turn you decide to drop the hammer, you'll have 5 or 6 formations in close proximity to the enemy just from the drop pods and teleporters.  I'd say under absolute worst possible conditions, you'll get 2 summons in from those.  Against a low-SR/low Init army like IG, you should be running out of daemons long before you run out of pacts.

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