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Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist

 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:23 pm 
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Hi all.

What follows is my first attempt at army list design, so apologies for any typos etc :)

I decided to have a crack at the Space Wolves for a few reasons:

1. I wanted an Imperial Marine Army, and really hate the old infantry models
2. I had a surplus of Chaos Marine models to use instead
3. There doesn't seem to be a maintained list knocking about, and it looked like a challenge.

I've stuck to Epic UK's lists points values and stat lines, as those are the most widely used marine lists that my opponents use (if I haven't where I should have please let me know  :whistle: ), except for the following changes:

1. Dropped the Assault Marines
2. Introduced foot-slogging Blood Claws (Berzerkers with their horns cut off look pretty good here),
3. Grey Hunters are Basically Tactical Marines, borrow the Imperial Guard Rule about 1/2 heavy Weapons, lowered points cost by 25 to represent this
4. Renamed Terminators to Wolf Guard, Removed Teleport, and gave them the option to deploy via drop pod
5. Replaced Scouts with Wolf Scouts (which are sort of a cross between a Scout and a Storm Trooper), upped cost to 200
6. Introduced Leman Russ Exterminator (borrowed stats from Raiders, thanks to Steve54 for his idea on how to include these).

The only other changes are cosmetic. I've renamed a few things to 'Space Wolf ....' As owing to the different troop types the descriptions are different, The Characters are renamed appropriately (but still the same rules-wise) and the Devastators are renamed to Long Fangs (I'm dead against making them better than Normal Devastators, if a Chaos Havoc can be 10,000 years old and still no better than a normal dev then why should these be).

Feel free to tear it apart!
Edit I now present v0.3.1, hopefully with less typos and some stats changes





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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:27 pm 
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You should probably drop the Leman Russ exterminator, as it won't be available to the Space Wolves in their new Codex (coming out soon).

More thoughts to follow.

====

More thoughts:

The wording on the Leman Russ Exterminator Upgrade is somewhat loose, could do with tightening up if you decide to keep it (you'll end up with a Space Wolves list that looks like the 3rd edition codex, not one that looks like the 5th edition codex, however).


Space Wolves will be gaining (don't laugh) Wolf Riders in the new Codex. You may want to do something about representing them.

Space Wolves will also be gaining 'wolf packs', that being packs of giant wolves that they bring along to war with them and then sic on the enemy.

Grey Hunters will not have any Heavy Weapons choices in the new Codex, but will have 2 Special Weapon choices per squad instead. Same with Blood Claws.

Long Fangs will be the best 'Devestator' type squad in the game, possibly meriting either a third shot at range, or a FF of 2+.

Oh yeah, they're getting the Land Raider Crusader and Redeemer, as compensation for losing the Russ Exterminator.


=====

The new Codex is out in four weeks' time, so you may want to wait and buy it before treading too far down the playtesting line, because as I said, your list is clearly based on a ten year old Codex, which is about to be entirely replaced/updated.

====

Oh and EpicUK's Marauder Bombers... still pretty much never going to be seen at that price. I'd suggest either a second price drop, or a bump to 3BP each.

=====

So yeah, it looks like a great list that represents the Space Wolves as portrayed in their 3rd edition Codex, however, they are going to have a huge update, very very soon.

So I guess now's the time to choose if you want your list to represent the past, or the present*.


*Even if that does include Astartes riding Fenrisian Wolves!




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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:16 pm 
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I'd like to see a good Space Wolf list done, though there are some problem areas where your first draft doesn't represent the Wolves very well.

The relevant difference in epic terms between Long Fangs and Devestators is not that Long Fangs are 'better' - it's the density of the heavy weapons in the squad. Codex size for a Space Marine Devestator Squad is 10 with 4 heavy weapons, therefore two stands in epic, each with two shots. Long Fangs only come in squads of 5 but they still carry 4 heavy weapons. An epic Long Fang stand should have an impressive 4 shots. However, if they are kept to squad sizes of 2 which I think might be the best option then they will have the exact number of shots as a Devestator squad, but they would be considerably easier to suppress and kill - in one sense they're better to only actually be worse if you see. Alternatively if you did decided you still wanted to have them fielded in 3s or 4s then a point change could account for it. Lastly a FF boost to 2+ considering all those heavy weapons would probably be appropriate.

Grey Hunters are never allowed to take any heavy weapons, at all ever. You must scrap the 1/2 heavy weapon rule for them to have no ranged attack.

In W40k Blood Claws have a special rule that makes them considerably much more effective on the turn they charge into combat: +2 attacks each that turn. I would like to see them have some kind of boost in epic to add flavour too - perhaps bump they're CC up to 2+ if they engage into close combat (but not if they're opponent does). If that seems a bit high remember they do also have a power weapon / fist carried by a normal squad member which normal marines can't. Blood Claws are also poor shots and are rumoured to be having a special rule where they are only allowed to shoot if they are accompanied by a character. I'd think about dropping their FF down to 6+ to represent this and counter-balance the on the charge CC boost.

Why no option for Blood Claws with Jump Packs?

You may like to wait till the long awaited new Space Wolves Codex comes out in the near future as that is meant to be adding in new units and such in e.g. Thunderwolves and such like.


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Hi E&C

Thanks for the updates on the updates so to speak.
I certainly can lose the Exterminator, I'll probably put it in an appendix if I ever finish the document for those of us who remember 40k before it became one big toy advert.

I think I'll leave the Grey Hunters as they are (although the Blood Claws might now justify FF 4+) my rationale is that the 'missile launcher' is a sort of abstracted measure of the unit's ability to project fire beyond assault range. Also if I don't pretty much the entire army becomes based around engagements.

I think I'll leave the Long Fangs alone for now, not wanting to bow to GW's latest marketing ploy :) If playtesting shows the army lacks shooting ability (which I suspect it will) then this is a good place to add some.

I'm tempted to stick the Space Wolves on Wolves in an appendix too, as an alternative to bikes (thinking 20cm move CC3+, FF 5+, Infiltrate).

I'll also not be putting the Land Raider Variants in the list, until such time as the core marine list gets them.....


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:38 pm 
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Quote: (hello_dave @ Sep. 10 2009, 4:26 PM)

Hi E&C

Thanks for the updates on the updates so to speak.
I certainly can lose the Exterminator, I'll probably put it in an appendix if I ever finish the document for those of us who remember 40k before it became one big toy advert.

You'd have to dig a long way back past the 3rd Edition Space Wolves Codex for that to be true!  :)

Quote: 

I think I'll leave the Grey Hunters as they are (although the Blood Claws might now justify FF 4+) my rationale is that the 'missile launcher' is a sort of abstracted measure of the unit's ability to project fire beyond assault range. Also if I don't pretty much the entire army becomes based around engagements.

They simply do not have any ability to project firepower beyond assault range ; you are bestowing upon the unit an ability it does not have... not too dissimilar to giving Warhound Titans Volcano Cannons, or Guard Storm Troopers Missile Launchers, to pick a more salient example!

Quote: 

I think I'll leave the Long Fangs alone for now, not wanting to bow to GW's latest marketing ploy :) If playtesting shows the army lacks shooting ability (which I suspect it will) then this is a good place to add some.

As Glyn notes, this is not a recent change, this is something from the 3rd edition Space Wolves Codex which will only become more noticable in the new codex.

A 'codex' Devestator Squad is 10 men, and has 4 heavy weapons.
A 'space wolves' Devestator Squad is 5 men, and has 4 heavy weapons.

Long Fangs have more heavy weapons per man than any other Devestator squad in the game, that is and always has been their defining characteristic (well that, and the ability to split fire, but that's somewhat beneath Epic's level of focus).

Quote: 

I'm tempted to stick the Space Wolves on Wolves in an appendix too, as an alternative to bikes (thinking 20cm move CC3+, FF 5+, Infiltrate).

And the wolf packs?

Quote: 

I'll also not be putting the Land Raider Variants in the list, until such time as the core marine list gets them.....

A pity, as I'm sure Otterware or Nikware will cover them at some point.

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:57 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 10 2009, 4:38 PM)

Quote: 

I think I'll leave the Grey Hunters as they are (although the Blood Claws might now justify FF 4+) my rationale is that the 'missile launcher' is a sort of abstracted measure of the unit's ability to project fire beyond assault range. Also if I don't pretty much the entire army becomes based around engagements.

They simply do not have any ability to project firepower beyond assault range ; you are bestowing upon the unit an ability it does not have... not too dissimilar to giving Warhound Titans Volcano Cannons, or Guard Storm Troopers Missile Launchers, to pick a more salient example!

It's not that bad. First, an Epic formation of Grey Hunters need not depict multiple WH40K Grey Hunter squads, only. Instead, it depicts a formation of Space Wolves infantry comprised mostly of Grey Hunters. Like the man said, the formation has some long-range firepower, which he'll depict with an abstraction similar to the one used with the SL guardsmen. Another way to do it would be to include some Long Fang units in the formation.

Then, we need to remember that the WH40K rules are not the "laws of physics" for the 40K world. They are simply another abstraction, not necessarily more "correct" than the one we pick for Epic. Having a rule in WH40K saying that Grey Hunters don't have Heavy Weapons (another WH40K abstraction!) does not necessarily mean that Grey Hunters in the 40K world don't have or use them. Sure, the fluff will flow to make people buy all the new minis, but we can simply choose to ignore it, and dwwforus.


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Quote: 

Another way to do it would be to include some Long Fang units in the formation.

Now that would be a solution I could get behind... no devestator formation, but the ability to add Long Fangs in limited ammounts to other formations, complete with extra shots etc, to help compensate for the lack of shooting from the rest of the formation...


Quote: 

Having a rule in WH40K saying that Grey Hunters don't have Heavy Weapons (another WH40K abstraction!)

How is that an abstraction?

It's a rule that says 'Grey Hunters eschew Heavy Weapons and instead take an extra Special Weapon / Long Fangs are the only Space Wolves that use Heavy Weapons'.

It's no more an abstraction than saying 'most marines use Boltguns', or whatever.

Quote: 

does not necessarily mean that Grey Hunters in the 40K world don't have or use them.

Unit writing for Epic is all about writing a set of unit stats that picks an abstract for what is most common.

Thus all Leman Russ have hull mounted lascannons, and all Devestators carry Missile Launchers.

What they don't do is give all Leman Russ hull mounted assault cannons, or all Devestators Heavy Stubbers...

...which is effectively the same thing as saying 'Grey Hunters should have missile launchers'... the fact is, they don't.

Whilst 1 in 1000 Grey Hunters might technically possibly maybe carry a missile launcher, that is not a typical Grey Hunter weapon...

...and that's where the abstract comes in, to say that you should represent the most common equipment style.

So your Long Fang unit gets Heavy Weapons (and justifiably, more of them than a Devestator unit), and your Grey Hunter unit gets no Heavy Weapon, but does get a Special Weapon... because 99% of Grey Hunter units will fit roughly under that template, and we can forget about the 1% that featured in a Black Library book one time carrying a Heavy Flamer.

Quote: 

Sure, the fluff will flow to make people buy all the new minis, but we can simply choose to ignore it

Yes, you can ignore the background, or create a list based on background that comes from a ten year-old book that has been overwritten... either way, you're effectively making up your own 'Space Wolves', instead of writing a list that tries to reflect what 'Space Wolves' actually are.

There comes a point where you willfully ignore so much background (or 'fluff', if you prefer) that you end up playing a game that looks nothing like the background at all...

...in essence you create your own game, which whatever its merits (and they may be legion), is not set in the Warhammer 40,000 setting anymore.




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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:25 am 
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I'm quite happy to see something done about Space Wolves list. But I also agree with most E&Cs concerns... though I still can't get used to his new avatar.


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:42 am 
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Quote: (vytzka @ Sep. 11 2009, 07:25 )

I'm quite happy to see something done about Space Wolves list.

Me too.

Quote: 

But I also agree with most E&Cs concerns... though I still can't get used to his new avatar.

Try as I might, I cannot find a copy of my old avatar.  :disagree:

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:59 am 
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Sorry to have offended everyone's sensibilities with this, although I can see why it takes so long to get anything done on here!

I think the main problem boils down to too many heavy weapons in one place and not enough in another am I right?

So I now propose:

The Grey Hunters lose all of their missile launchers
The Long Fangs gain one extra Launcher per stand (any maybe a point of FF, unless that's shown to be too good). You can no longer take them as a formation, but instead get an upgrade for the Grey Hunters (2 Long Fangs, 150 points?) In that case, I'd also be tempted to add Land Raiders as an upgrade for Grey Hunters....


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:14 am 
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All of that sounds pretty good, Dave.


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:54 am 
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Sounds like a good start to me.

You may find in time that Long Fangs will need their full allocation of 4 (rumoured soon to be 5) Heavy Weapons per 5 men/per unit, in order to compensate for the lack of Missile Launchers in the rest of the army.

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:15 am 
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Hi E&C.

Indeed, I'm wary about making them too good, but if playtesting shows that they need to be beefed up then so be it.

I've posted an update to the document, I've labelled it 0.2 as there's a few fair large changes:

Long Fangs Now an upgrade, Grey Hunters lose all missile Launchers and are another 25 points cheaper as a result.
Leman Russ Exterminator moved out of the main list
Blood Claws can take a Jump Pack upgrade (but lose their Transports)
I've introduced the Fenrisian and Thunder Wolves (using best guess at Stats), and added a formation for them.


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:42 am 
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No Special Weapons for the Grey Hunters (normally seems to be represented by Plasma Guns, 15cm, AP5+/AT5+), when they have 1 per 5 men (rumoured to be free in the new codex)?

You've upped the speed on the Vindicator, IIRC EpicUK didn't do that, he just dropped the price to 50pts?

Your Hunter has 4+ armour, instead of 5+.

How about Fenrisian Wolves as an Upgrade choice for Grey Hunters too?

Vindicator formation is listed at 300pts, IIRC EpicUK dropped that down to 250pts or thereabouts... personally I still can't see them being taken as a formation until they reach 225pts or 200pts (at 200pts, it's not like they're going to be as good as a Land Speeder formation, really).

Personal bugbear: Land Speeder Tornados are never going to be worth +10pts, and at the least should be free, or have a FF stat bump or something, IMO. As with Marauder Bombers, if you want to stick with the EpicUK costings/stats, then they'll stay in the Chapter armouries when the Space Wolves go to war.  :)


Overall I really like it and will be poking a Space Wolves player I know to try it out.


EDIT: Could you include a single-page stat reference sheet?




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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:57 am 
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Hi E&C.

Cheers for spotting those typos, I'll sort them out in the next draft.

I don't think the Grey Hunters should get a Special Weapon on their statline. My take on it is that, when regular Tactical Marines firefight the missile launcher that has caused such controversy is firing too, hence Devastators (with more heavy weapons) are better at firefighting (this conveniently ignores the fact that a Codex Tactical squad is supposed to have one heavy and one special weapon, rather than two heavy weapons). So the Grey Hunters lose the Heavy Weapons, but gain a mixture of special weapons which evens out in a firefight (to my mind). I'm wary of giving them a special weapon because combined with Long Fangs, that's a lot of AP/AT hurt, and it just feels wrong to promote the Grey Hunters shooting when they should get stuck in.
I'm also going to stick with the Epic UK stats, the people I play against know them, and are pretty much going with Epic UK lists as they come out, so I don't want to cause any confusion amongst potential playtest victims.


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