Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 9  Next

Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1

 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:41 pm
Posts: 387
Location: London
Does anyone (apart from Elsmore) actually have a harlequin army, or intend to make one i.e. not just use counts as? Just curious. I've got three plastic stands of original harlies.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5467
Location: London, UK
LoL, but a good question

I have at least 12 painted harlie stands, a further 12 HBs (to proxy as something) and other bikes / Vypers etc for their transport. That said, as others have implied, the list is intended to work best with other Eldar armies providing significant numbers of formations, so people do not actually need that many 'Harlie' figures or stands, especially when mounting Solitaire, Death Jesters and other key characters on their own bases. . . . ;)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2476
Location: UK
I regrettably sold all my harlequins a few years back before everything was canned. Counts as here.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:51 am
Posts: 278
Kyrt wrote:
I didn't even give them a seconds thought at 3 per formation for their cost but I guess they could still he useful. Yes they won't die easily but are very susceptible to BMs and can't actually accomplish all that much either. They aren't really cheap enough to be a throwaway scout-botherer either.


They also break to just two hits from any disrupt weaponry...

StevekCole wrote:
Mark agree, Harlies plus allies seems to work better. Eg they get access to 'standard' eldar vehicles, possibly only those available to all other eldar lists (grav tanks, non-void spinner WEs, nightwings, night spinners etc but not vampire hunters, hornets, etc - plus no non Harlies infantry, except maybe rangers, which would remove the avatar)


Steve, I like this idea a lot. It'd be a lot easier to drop the odd Eldar unit that allows an overpowered combo than try and constantly mess with the Harlies list to not cause problems with all the different Eldar lists. Restricting infantry sounds intresting - no Guardians(No Farseers) would give greater importance to Shadowseers in the Harlequin list.

Ginger wrote:
The question I have is whether this tactic is too powerfull - it is reminiscent of the "eternal air assault" that was prevented by restricting consolidation onto the air-transport. In this case, do we need to restrict the Harlequins use of the webway, perhaps one gate per entry / exit per turn (so to assault and exit the formation would need two gates)?

This use of Storm Serpents is available to all Eldar lists, and being relatively brittle, I wonder about the use of three.


I see this being the main strength of the Army.
Theres lots of sneaky moves you could pull off with this.
-Rapid redeployment of troops through a unit assaulting, consolidating back into Webway and appearing from a SS on the other side of the board next turn.
- Running sacrificial Storm Serpents towards the enemy, assaulting and consolidating back in. Even if the SS gets blown up you can just all pop out the Wraithgate next turn.
- Unlike the Eldar list, I presume its just 3 units in the Web Way at any one time. So if a unit gets badly injured, another unit can just move into the Webway to take its place, ready to assault out next turn.
- If you want to defend an objective/blitz with Wraithgate troops, no need to wait all game, just move a unit into Webway the turn before.

This could be awesome, it might also be overpowered and need playtesting... trying out multiple Storm serpent lists should probably be on the 'to do' list.

Gingers idea of restricting it to One Gate per In/Out is intresting, perhaps when The Harlequins fight alongside Eldar allies this applies as they don't wish to share their secrets of the Webway with those who are not beyond Slannesh's corruption?

ffoley wrote:
Does anyone (apart from Elsmore) actually have a harlequin army, or intend to make one i.e. not just use counts as?


I've just a few Harlequin stands. Some of the Stygian models could make good possible Proxies painted up right.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:54 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:05 am
Posts: 992
ffoley wrote:
Does anyone (apart from Elsmore) actually have a harlequin army, or intend to make one i.e. not just use counts as? Just curious. I've got three plastic stands of original harlies.


Straight out of the Space Marine rulebook, it quite clearly states that using the odd guardian or random aspect mixed in with harlequins is totally okay given their random and varied styles of dress.

One or two harlies, then bulked with old school guardians per base, plus a suitable paint scheme and it's perfect. I think I'll be building up a dozen or two bases! :D


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:41 pm
Posts: 387
Location: London
rolling 3+ for holofields negates disrupt - wraithlords FTW

btw this convo seems a bit biased towards craftworld eldar and e:uk. No talk yet of e.g. how harlequins interact with that big netEA d.eldar kashnarak beast thing or portable webways or why dont harlequins have fleet of foot?

halrequins are basically eldar necron terminators, sorting out what they can get away with regarding gate (and air assault) is critical

btw the death jester in all the versions I remember basically had a shur cannon with a small chance to make an individual's head explode. For some reason here he has one of the best anti RA weapons in the game with sniper, lance) - just saying


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5467
Location: London, UK
ffoley wrote:
btw this convo seems a bit biased towards craftworld eldar and e:uk. No talk yet of e.g. how harlequins interact with that big netEA d.eldar kashnarak beast thing or portable webways or why dont harlequins have fleet of foot?
If D.E. (either version) are used with the Harlies, then the relevant rules would also apply. In Net:EA, Kashnarak can emerge from the Wraithgate. The beast would then chase and fight the nearest unit (without a Wych) including the Harlies. In E-UK, the DE character carrying the portal could deploy it near the enemy and potentially use it for several Harlie assaults.

Fleet of foot is a DE rule, so would not apply to the Harlies per se. However both versions of DE could support a Harlie assault - if they really need it ;) - or provide a Crossfire for the few Harlies that can shoot.

ffoley wrote:
harlequins are basically eldar necron terminators, sorting out what they can get away with regarding gate (and air assault) is critical
Absolutely agree here, hence my question / thought about restricting their use of Webway gates. TBH, this is more of an issue when associated with the E-UK DE, because of the portable 'gate which could easily be used to engineer multiple Harlie assaults if its use is unrestricted. Air assaults are less of an issue, unless accompanied by a Storm Serpent / portable webway though that combination is using up a lot of points which in itself will tend to restrict the abuses.

ffoley wrote:
btw the death jester in all the versions I remember basically had a shur cannon with a small chance to make an individual's head explode. For some reason here he has one of the best anti RA weapons in the game with sniper, lance) - just saying
LoL, in a Harlequin troupe he is the only infantry unit that can shoot, and in the 'fluff' he is apparently a master. In the earlier 'fluff' he had the choice of several weapons including Shuriken cannon and Bright Lance. However I think you are referring to the Death Jester's Shrieker cannon, which fires projectiles impregnated with toxins so virulent that they turn the victim into a walking bomb that ultimately explodes with sickening violence. TBH we have taken a small liberty merging these into a single set of stats for E:A; IMO the very limited numbers of such units on the table will make little overall difference to any particular game.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:35 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:23 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Newcastle, UK
Every shuriken cannon in 2nd ed 40k had the shrieker ammo that made the target into a walking screaming bomb not just the jester dude

Sent from my 4027X using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:42 pm
Posts: 692
Location: Bundaberg, QLD, Australia
Doomkitten wrote:
One or two harlies, then bulked with old school guardians per base, plus a suitable paint scheme and it's perfect. I think I'll be building up a dozen or two bases! :D


Cool, time to dig those mk1 eldar out and give them a suitable paint scheme... ;D

_________________
Regards
Greg

*************************************************

Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:54 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5467
Location: London, UK
And the limited number of characters and individuals cry out for special attention. Check out Elsemore's stuff on miniwars.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:14 am
Posts: 249
Location: Germany
guys, I have serious concerns about this list.
i can't shake the feeling that it allows for near unbeatable configurations paired up with somewhat flawes special rules, uberpowerful troops and a mishapen armour concept.

1. the veil of tears is over complicated imho and pratically radiates frustration of every player running against it. it will unequally discriminate and will make marines almost useless due to their low numbers, wehreas orks with grots face no serious outcome.
also what will happen in an assault when there are less oponents then the veil affects in its roll?


2. holofields
this has bee raised quite a few times by now, and although i agree that harlies should have some kind of protection vs macro, reinforced armour definetedly isn't the way to go. small elaboration on the intention:
harlies resilence do not stem from natural resilence (ogryns, etc.), thick armours (terminators, marines, etc) or bank of powerfields. they are simply very hard to hit due to the very nature of their method of protection the holofield.
this resluts in: it doesn't matter what hits them. be it an AP round, a MW, TK or some other stuff in base to base or ff. if they are hit (the hit pentrates the holofield and finds it target) the harly is down. no matter how flimsy the attack.
in the current concept with reinforced armour harlies have a substantially better protection vs non MW weapons and no protection vs TK weapons. that is simply not the way it should be. also the mutate to terminator like resilence in cover.
please consider an invulnerable save of 5+ due to the very nature and described mechanics of the holofield. it will give equal protection vs any kind of attack, as it should be with non physical protection but rangefinding distortion and optical jamming. it does not sit well with area of effect weapons and ignore cover, but a "permanent in cover rule" that would adress everything correctly does not seem to find many supporters. so the inv. 5+ is arguable the best solution imho and can be powerful enough in most circumstances but not unbeatable.

sorry to bring this in again, but I felt the need to contribute again in order to tackle my growing unease with the (for me) overwhelming stats..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:24 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:41 pm
Posts: 387
Location: London
Don't think of them as harlequins they're the eldarecronators - those that have seen them and lived to tell the tale say they looked like SM plastic guardians painted in bright garish colours


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5467
Location: London, UK
Graf_Spee wrote:
guys, I have serious concerns about this list.
i can't shake the feeling that it allows for near unbeatable configurations paired up with somewhat flawes special rules, uberpowerful troops and a mishapen armour concept.
TBH I have never disguised the general concerns about the potential power of the list in the many years that I have been associated with it. That said, I believe we are getting closer to something that is playable. One thing to remember is that most lists have been considered way OTT at least sometime in their life. Many / most have deliberate weaknesses built into them that can be exploited by the correct tactics, and occasionally a different strategy.
In the case of the Harlies, the key weaknesses are limited numbers, poor / absent FF capabilities, virtually no firepower, limited strategic mobility and relatively high cost. Yes these can be offset through the addition of Eldar 'allies', though even there the player is usually faced with significant choices on which elements to use or omit in order to pursue a particular strategy. And even then the Harlies present the choice of being used as pure assault troops or more expensive objective contesters / controllers (don't forget that the "standard" tournament game is about the strategic Objectives).
Note, I am already considering whether we need to restrict the Harlie's use of the Webway, forcing the player to have two 'gates relatively close together to allow them to escape. This is both more expensive and tactically harder to achieve.

Graf_Spee wrote:
1. the veil of tears is over complicated imho and pratically radiates frustration of every player running against it. it will unequally discriminate and will make marines almost useless due to their low numbers, wehreas orks with grots face no serious outcome.
also what will happen in an assault when there are less oponents then the veil affects in its roll?
This is a very draft attempt at something that is unique to E:A. There are several aims behind the rule.
- It makes the Harlies slightly less destructive; the broken enemy can often be rallied to fight again.
- It gives the Harlie player the choice to remove an Inspiring enemy unit from the assault, but leaving it in the game . . .
- It directs the Harlies more against larger enemy formations reducing the impact of the enemy numbers.
- In doing so, it should also force the player to be more discriminating in their use.

Against small formations, the 'assault' could go straight to the resolution where the superior Harlie numbers (and possibly Inspiring) will leave the Harlies at least 2+ ahead. Against Grots, Harlie assaults can actually become more effective by 'removing' them from the effects of the assault.

Graf_Spee wrote:
2. holofields
this has bee raised quite a few times by now, and although i agree that harlies should have some kind of protection vs macro, reinforced armour definetedly isn't the way to go.
As I said at the start of the thread, nothing is set in stone. If the general view is that this is the way to go, then it will be added
- I have not completely dismissed Holofields, though a 3+ / 5+ save is IMO probably OTT
- Having a 5+ Invulnerable save is a slight boost over 5+ RA, though is slightly more 'fluffy' as you say.
What do others think?

Finally, perhaps everyone could post some "abusive" lists for us to consider and try out?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5467
Location: London, UK
ffoley wrote:
Don't think of them as harlequins they're the eldarecronators - those that have seen them and lived to tell the tale say they looked like SM plastic guardians painted in bright garish colours
LoL, :D
+1 for initiative ;)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2476
Location: UK
Ginger I believe you are assuming that harlequins wear armour (and would therefore keep 5+ AND an invulnerable save). My understanding is that they in fact have no armour at all other than the holofield, as graf spee noted if something gets through the holofield they should be taken out.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 9  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net