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Iron Hands 1.2

 Post subject: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:42 pm 
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So after giving this a lot of thought, and changing things back and forth a number of times, here is my proposal for a new version of the Iron Hands list:
https://magnusdurr.github.io/netea-dev/ ... s_1.2.html

The mission statement, copied from Apocolocyntosis Iron Hands 1.1 thread:
  • Increased use of dreadnoughts
  • Dreadnoughts in leadership/character roles
  • Greatly reduced terminators, now employed as squad leaders
  • Mechanised Infantry
  • Strong ties to ad-mech, but dogmatic and isolated from other allies

The biggest change from 1.1 is the removal of all Air Transports :o I think there are enough Space Marine lists out there focusing on air assaults and as long as the Thunderhawk is available in the list, any optimized list will contain at least one Thunderhawk. I feel a primarily ground based play style, augmented with drop pods, would be a better fit for the mission statement and it would also make the Iron Hands chapter more unique.

Compared to Codex Astartes there are some obvious negatives (no Terminators, Thunderhawks or Landing Crafts) but also a number of positives. I hope people find the core formations interesting and useful, with a built in leader and a number of interesting upgrades. The list also has more and better titan configurations and hopefully we will see some army builds based around a Reaver or Warlord titan. Hopefully this list will feel and play differently from other Space Marine lists and be an interesting addition for the Space Marine players.

An armyforge link is available here: https://magnusdurr.github.io/snapfire/w ... v1.2_NETEA

I will wait for community feedback before starting any play tests. I think it’s better to get initial alignment and community buy-in before start doing battle reports. Also, I hear the Blood Angels and Ravenguard are still missing a few reports.

A more detailed description of changes compared to the 1.1 list:
  • Points and stats aligned with approved Codex Astartes
  • Introduced Core/Support structure
  • Removed all Air Transports!
  • Removed the "Flesh is Weak" special rule
  • Character (and Venerable Dreadnought) upgrades cleaned up to avoid multiple Leader or Inspiring characters in one formation.
    - Veteran Sergeants (cheap leader) only available in core formations.
    - Venerable Dreadnoughts are now the only option to get Inspiring or Supreme Commander.
    - New Techmarine character, unlocks Graviton Guns on selected units in his formation.
  • Iron Hands Clan split into two formations: Dreadnought and Mechanized Clan to give each formation a clear role and to enable a combined arms formation to a reasonable price. Devastators are now a formation upgrade.
    - Added Land Raider Anvilarum as an option to transport Dreadnoughts
  • Assault Marines replaced by Land Speeders, as they fit the ground based play style better
  • Dreadnought Talon points increase to avoid spam, and an additional +25 points upgrade to deploy in Drop Pod
  • Changed Iron Hands Strike Cruiser transport capability to limit number of dropping Dreadnoughts
  • Introduced a few new Titan configurations and aligned most weapon stats with Titan Legion to make large Titans more attractive despite the "Cult of the Machine" special rule
  • And a few more minor changes...

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Really like the changes from the draft version. Completely agree with the rationale around removing the air transport, and the forced Razorback upgrade on the Scouts is interesting as well. Lowering the total transport capacity on the Strike Cruiser was a good move, might have been a bit too nasty the first turn otherwise.

Still think we're unlikely to see anyone take Land Raiders or Predator Destructor formations when compared to taking 4 Predator Annihilator, but since Vanilla Marines have the same issue I understand why you've copied that.

Spotted that the Deathstrike on the Warlord variant doesn't seem to have a fire arc. Is that intentional? Not sure on the letting transported units in LR Anvilarium shoot out, but it's worth playtesting.

The alternate Reaver variants are cool, especially the CC version with the Corvus pod.

About the option to give Tacticals either Missile Launchers or Graviton Guns: I attempted to give Dark Angels the option of choosing between Plasma Cannons and Missile Launchers when I first made the list, and people didn't really like that. I personally don't really mind (I still kind of like the idea), but an alternative would be for the entire formation to choose one or the other?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Everything except the shooting from within land raiders sounds great. Good job!

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Nice work! I appreciate your commitment to removing the Thawk. That's not an easy trigger to pull for marine lists!

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Interesting feedback on the LR Anvilarum, what do you guys feel is the problem with shooting from within the transport?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:12 pm 
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I like where this is headed. I can now see multiple interesting deployment options for Dreadnoughts; That easily compensates for not having THawks. Big fan of the Anvilarum.

I like the Dreadnought variety; It seems that all the boxy flavours are covered. Perhaps an explicit Contemptor-pattern variant, or callouts to the old Deredeo or Furibundus patterns?

The Bionics rule looks good. Characterful and not dominating.

The Graviton guns seems a little underwhelming, especially for the tactical marines - I'm not familiar with the how Graviton weapons "should" feel, but they are definitely a downgrade here.

Also, the Heavy Graviton guns on the Hellfire Dreadnought and the Predator have different statlines?

Looking forward to seeing this develop!


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Argol wrote:
Interesting feedback on the LR Anvilarum, what do you guys feel is the problem with shooting from within the transport?


It's a very unusual thing for a non-WE transport. I don't think it's needed and it's better to keep most transports in a list pretty even. It can already transport a dreadnought which is a odd but good thing. Does it really need another special feature besides that?

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Argol wrote:
Interesting feedback on the LR Anvilarum, what do you guys feel is the problem with shooting from within the transport?


I think it might be odd if you have a 4++ transport that carries (say) 2 devastators each that can fire from the inside. It might be better if the Anvilarium was a dedicated transport for Dreadnoughts, then I'd feel better about the shooting while loaded aspect.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:09 pm 
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Argol wrote:
Interesting feedback on the LR Anvilarum, what do you guys feel is the problem with shooting from within the transport?


Its undergunned if the passengers can't shoot out. I rather thought it matched the description here: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Land ... _Anvilarum.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:27 pm 
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Had missed the part about the ramparts to be honest. Maybe the current stats work pretty well then.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:37 pm 
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Actually, looks like the Lexicanum entry might be wrong. Just happened to stumble across an Anvilarium proxy on Thingiverse, and according to its description the Anvilarium was an upgraded Spartan Assault Tank, and not a Land Raider. The two are similar, but the Spartan Assault Tank is about 50% longer. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3120549

That would explain some odd things about the Lexicanum entry. The Spartan and the bigger Space Marine SHT are the only ones that I'm aware of that has Quad Lascannons (one on either side). There's also a note about the "rear compartment" which doesn't make much sense on a Land Raider.

The stats I use for the Spartan Assault Tank in Alpha Legion come from the French 30k rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:03 am 
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The Thingiverse model looks really good, but lacks the chariot part. Did a quick mod of the model and added one.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:35 pm 
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Hey guys, thanks for the feedback.

Mrdiealot wrote:
I think it might be odd if you have a 4++ transport that carries (say) 2 devastators each that can fire from the inside.

I'm not too worried about the shooting. There are better, and cheaper, options if you want to optimize your shooting. You could e.g. buy 2 Standard Land Raiders for 25 points less, and do more hits on mixed targets (even if your Tacticals stay inside the LRs).

mordoten wrote:
It's a very unusual thing for a non-WE transport. I don't think it's needed and it's better to keep most transports in a list pretty even.

I'm all for streamlining. I allowed units to shoot out because of the description of the vehicle, but also to compensate for the lack of firepower on the Anvilarum itself. I did not want to give the Anvilarum Quad Lascannons (which is the weapon mentioned in the description), as that would have pushed the price way beyond where it is usable as an upgrade and transport. I wanted an affordable ground transport that could carry Dreadnoughts. If people find this special rule too weird I guess I can keep it at 50 pts, remove the special rule and give the Anvilarum some half-crappy ranged weapon.

SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Also, the Heavy Graviton guns on the Hellfire Dreadnought and the Predator have different statlines?

Thanks for spotting this, I have fixed the error on the Hellfire Dreadnought.

SpeakerToMachines wrote:
The Graviton guns seems a little underwhelming

The Graviton Guns are a 25 points upgrade so they should definitely not feel like a downgrade. Sustained fire with Graviton Guns could be quite nasty. On the other hand, if you are in range with your Graviton Guns you are well within engagement range which is what Marines do best... For 400 points you could get a formation with 10 Graviton Guns (Tacticals, Razorbacks & Destructors). which I think has potential. If you double (or even march) up to an enemy formation late in the turn and if you go first next turn (which Marines tend to do), you will average 5 disrupt hits (6 guaranteed blast markers) with a sustain fire. This has the potential of breaking all sorts of enemy formations or even Titans. I will try out the Graviton Guns in a few games and see how it feels in play, maybe giving all Graviton Guns 30cm range could be an option.

Mrdiealot wrote:
About the option to give Tacticals either Missile Launchers or Graviton Guns: I attempted to give Dark Angels the option of choosing between Plasma Cannons and Missile Launchers when I first made the list, and people didn't really like that

I didn't intend for people to mix weapons in a single formation, but I realize this is how its now written. I might change the wording so that in a formation containing a Techmarine all units that have the option must use Graviton Guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Hands 1.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:52 pm 
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The Anvilarum by Sinzaren has been updated. Looks better but has less the charriot style vs being themed as having an internal storage area and custom assault ramp for a dread to come crashing out of. He's boosted it to be a Spartan variant which tbh, sounds far more reasonable and frankly, screams IH. I can't say if it's super needed but it certainly is interesting and pushes the theme of the list farther by making the dreads mobile.
Attachment:
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a22989c701308fb9cebb6a28a6f7b717_preview_featured.jpg [ 91.91 KiB | Viewed 327 times ]


Think that TBrick transporters actually fit the original mission of the list (to move away from the warhound+tbrick ago-go style of mono play that dominates Marine builds). They allow a heavy mech inf + walker build mobility. Admitedly this may butt into the whole Scions of Iron thing (who are interestingly enough, IH successors) so ... [shrug]

Regardless, keep up the good work here Argol!

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