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Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019

 Post subject: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:01 am 
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As we have come to a bit of a stall with development I am looking to get a simplified Gargant list tested and approved.

First off thanks to E&C for his initial work on this. We have been testing it over the last year. We will post a further six games here for the NetEA process, but are also looking at getting this released as an EUK list so I would like to keep changes to a minimum, but will listen to comments.


Changes from the previous Gargant list:-


The list is stripped back so units such as Lootas will have to find a new home. I will consider where after this list is approved.


Weapon costs are dropped for restrictions in number and placement - This gives a chance for weapons to be taken rather than a rush down to the cheapest builds to gain as many activations as possible.


Have a look, have a game and let me know your thoughts and battle reports.


Tim

V1.02 - Typos fixed no other changes


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File comment: Typos fixed
Gargant List v1.02.pdf [783.64 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:38 am 
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Sad to see the lootas go, I'd rather have seen the Killa Kan formation stripped instead, the lootas are a thematic choice and actually useful rather than a token cheap activation

That being said, count me in for some games to test the list

The problems/difficulties as I see them are as follows, the huge amount of DC available makes gargants not only hard to kill or break, but generally tougher to engage as they roll more dice... This compounds the issue where in most games the gargants will camp on their own blitz and the T&H objectives, then run supa stompas and planes around killing stuff.... This is further compounded when the gargants hop from cover to cover to reduce shooting effectiveness against them

Basically it has the problems of most war engine lists, only compounded as the gargants are so ruddy hard to deal with.... I expect it to struggle against AMTL or shadowsword-heavy guard, but it will be a tough prospect for marines and their ilk and will probably fall into the same trap as the Ferals, of being very tough to beat but struggling to win, and getting a lot of winning draws....

I do love the list but I find all-WE lists really push the limits of the EA system.....

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:21 am 
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Organizationally, I would move the Fightas, Bommers and Kroozer to an Aircraft section and limit these to one per Gargant and subsequently reduce the regular support slots unlocked by each Gargant by one each. It helps make it absolutely clear what the 1/3rd flyer units are and keeps five minimum units of fightas being taken for activation padding and air cover.

Comparing it to the new EUK AMTL list, I'd want to keep the flyers down to a minimum (and ideally not included), but that's certainly not a small change. At least shuffling the structure around should keep the balance broadly the same while slimming down the outlier lists somewhat and keeping the focus broadly on Garganting and Stomping. Personally, I'm not unhappy the Lootas went from this list for similar "theme" reasons, but as can be obviously seen from Kyuss's post, tastes and ideas vary.

Best of luck with approval, this actually has stuff I already have in it, so might even be able to contribute a test game. Ah, if abject tactical failures can still count for tests!


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:07 pm 
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heretical thinking here: but why do we have to automatically stat gargants at those DC/a+ values to start with? Maybe that's the thing to look at? Pay for scrap/loot that's used to build it (aka strength). In the infantry / armour focused ork army, a gargant/G. gargant is this centerpiece model and being a big heavily armoured singleton totem makes sense. Here they ARE the army. Seems like we continually fall into the trap of "well we do that in other lists so we automatically have to do that here too". Ummm... no we don't. Yeah yeah sure we have the universal stats for weapons and units but we adapt all the time. Just call a Gargant unit in this list, a Gargant Shell. You then strap on your purchased 'scrap' (aka DC and Armour) to the various chassis you've purchased.

Agree that lootas make a lot more thematic sense here in this list than other walkers (leave that theme to Ben's Stompy Onslaught List) but it's not a big deal to game balance I feel.

Count me in for games. This is one of the few NetEA lists I care anything about having 'approval' for. [sorry not sorry, NetEA ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:00 pm 
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Doomkitten wrote:
Organizationally, I would move the Fightas, Bommers and Kroozer to an Aircraft section and limit these to one per Gargant and subsequently reduce the regular support slots unlocked by each Gargant by one each. It helps make it absolutely clear what the 1/3rd flyer units are and keeps five minimum units of fightas being taken for activation padding and air cover.
Certainly a very good consideration, we do have a couple of players that like to go OTT on the flier front and this might need to be added.

Doomkitten wrote:
Comparing it to the new EUK AMTL list, <snip>
It is EUK AT list, but I know what you mean.

Doomkitten wrote:
Best of luck with approval, this actually has stuff I already have in it, so might even be able to contribute a test game. Ah, if abject tactical failures can still count for tests!
I make some of the stupidist of mistakes out there. Games still count though.

jimmyzimms wrote:
heretical thinking here: but why do we have to automatically stat gargants at those DC/a+ values to start with? Maybe that's the thing to look at? Pay for scrap/loot that's used to build it (aka strength). In the infantry / armour focused ork army, a gargant/G. gargant is this centerpiece model and being a big heavily armoured singleton totem makes sense. Here they ARE the army. Seems like we continually fall into the trap of "well we do that in other lists so we automatically have to do that here too". Ummm... no we don't. Yeah yeah sure we have the universal stats for weapons and units but we adapt all the time. Just call a Gargant unit in this list, a Gargant Shell. You then strap on your purchased 'scrap' (aka DC and Armour) to the various chassis you've purchased.
And here madness lies. We had so many options with the first drafts of the Gargant list with Snappa/Mek/Krawler/Blasta that although it was fun to play with it was a bit too much. I want an approved list and then we can look at getting a bit more wacky. A form of OGBM has been out there for almost 15 years, I would like to get something finished.

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:01 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
heretical thinking here: but why do we have to automatically stat gargants at those DC/a+ values to start with? Maybe that's the thing to look at? Pay for scrap/loot that's used to build it (aka strength). In the infantry / armour focused ork army, a gargant/G. gargant is this centerpiece model and being a big heavily armoured singleton totem makes sense. Here they ARE the army. Seems like we continually fall into the trap of "well we do that in other lists so we automatically have to do that here too". Ummm... no we don't. Yeah yeah sure we have the universal stats for weapons and units but we adapt all the time. Just call a Gargant unit in this list, a Gargant Shell. You then strap on your purchased 'scrap' (aka DC and Armour) to the various chassis you've purchased.


I *REALLY* like the idea of a 'shell' unit, then say 3-9 'upgrades' being taken per Gargant to make the unit up to a Gargant. It fuels kitbashing like -damn-. Still, it might not sit easily with balancing the thing, and certainly not be a quick list to prepare or test I love it as an idea, but with the difficulty that other things are having getting anything finished - is it practical right here just from a "FITD" view? Maybe it's time to Hawk Lords up some Gargant shell units into a list?


As an aside - I totally know the difference between the EUK AT list and an AMTL list. Promise. I think... >_>
(Sorry Tim!)


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:24 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
The list is stripped back so units such as Lootas will have to find a new home. I will consider where after this list is approved.


What was the reasoning behind this? The immediate concern would be having to spare other formations to hold objectives which makes the Gargants more susceptible to attack

Tiny-Tim wrote:
Weapon costs are dropped for restrictions in number and placement - This gives a chance for weapons to be taken rather than a rush down to the cheapest builds to gain as many activations as possible.


Nice idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:26 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Just call a Gargant unit in this list, a Gargant Shell. You then strap on your purchased 'scrap' (aka DC and Armour) to the various chassis you've purchased.


Fun idea but it seems as if it would be open to abuse and a PITA to test.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:13 am 
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Will be getting some play test games in with this, and keenly following others input.

Cheers
Reedar


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:37 pm 
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This is quite a surprise, here i though that you were just taking your time before asking around for a new sub-AC, and i was preparing reports and data for it but now is mostly useless with those changes. I will see what i can salvage.

Will provide some reports and will publish the ones i have for fun, i suppose, after all i have them half done. Good luck with it!

Liking so far the work put into it.

Tiny-Tim wrote:
The list is stripped back so units such as Lootas will have to find a new home. I will consider where after this list is approved.


Weapon costs are dropped for restrictions in number and placement - This gives a chance for weapons to be taken rather than a rush down to the cheapest builds to gain as many activations as possible.


I want an approved list and then we can look at getting a bit more wacky. A form of OGBM has been out there for almost 15 years, I would like to get something finished.


Well, i am also into the train of not seeing much point of seeing the Lootas going out, all i can think as a reason of is that only two persons as far as I remember used them a lot or considered them any good, or that simply you took the UK approach of cutting as much as possible. What i am not going to miss are the Fortresses.

About the weapons, to be fair the issue was that the cheapest weapons were the best cost/power more than going for the bigget number of DCs, as proof of it there has not been any 5 gargants/greatG lists played and very few with 4. You can also have the issue being reported by several on the OGBM thread.
Apart, i would like to know first what measures are you going to take to balance things out before i offer ideas if not i would be wasting the time as i won't know if they could work with your vision, as while on UK they could change the weapons' power and balance things a bit so there is a bit of variety in what people usually take competitively, with Orks and in NetEA i do not see a way to do, beginning with the long time issue of Soopagunz vs SupaZzap.


The third puzzles me, as Mordoten's was almost done and just needed to balance the Ripper Fist, Gatling Cannon, Mega Lobba and the Push'em harder. Would be a lot faster go that way than creating a new one, in my opinion.

kyussinchains wrote:
of being very tough to beat but struggling to win, and getting a lot of winning draws....



For good or for bad, OGBM has won a lot more games by objectives than by points, so i think will be better to focus first on seeing the power of this one.


Doomkitten wrote:

Comparing it to the new EUK AMTL list, I'd want to keep the flyers down to a minimum (and ideally not included), but that's certainly not a small change. At least shuffling the structure around should keep the balance broadly the same while slimming down the outlier lists somewhat and keeping the focus broadly on Garganting and Stomping. P



Makes sense but keep into account also that Orks are not humans and have to rely on the Fightas for any long range or artillery fire or even to counter their lack of speed for the assaults, so they need more flyers than other races to work well.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:26 pm 
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It would be great to get this finalised! I’m not bothered either way re: costing weapons or not.
Gatling Kannon seems considerably underpowered. 45cm and 6 x AP/AT5+ isn’t much good compared to the other options. Particularly on a slow unit that will often be doubling. I agree with the worse to hit rolls than Imperial titan weapons but could it not be boosted to 7 or 8 shots? What’s more Orky that rolling bucket loads of dice with terrible to hit rolls?
Snappa Belly Gun should probably have a frontal or fixed forward arc?
Shouldn’t a Great Gargant have D6+6 Power Fields rather than the same as a regular Gargant?
Maybe the 0-1 limitations from the regular Ork list should be retained? E.g. Super-Zzap Gun 0-1 per a Gargant? I’d stongly suggest making the missiles 0-1 per Gargant.
I’d prefer to limit the Supa-Stompa to a more limited choice of weapons than the Gargant. Giving it the same free choice of 3 Gargant weapons seems too good for it and to devalue the much more expensive Gargant.
Text for the Gargant’s Super-zap gun is wrong.
Text of the criticals should be expanded to mention it is rolled for in the end phase and what a not put out fire does.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:26 am 
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Abetillo wrote:

Doomkitten wrote:

Comparing it to the new EUK AMTL list, I'd want to keep the flyers down to a minimum (and ideally not included), but that's certainly not a small change. At least shuffling the structure around should keep the balance broadly the same while slimming down the outlier lists somewhat and keeping the focus broadly on Garganting and Stomping. P



Makes sense but keep into account also that Orks are not humans and have to rely on the Fightas for any long range or artillery fire or even to counter their lack of speed for the assaults, so they need more flyers than other races to work well.



A) We find a solution that isn't simply "add more flyers", as in my (limited) experience, abused use of excessive flyers just produces a game that nobody enjoys. B) "Add more flyers" also feels the least in-keeping with a gargant-themed list, in my opinion. C) Maybe we just improve other aspects into strengths rather than simply trying to counter weaknesses?

That said, I'd be quite happy to see a single really long-range, or solid indirect fire option available.something like that in limited quantities (perhaps available at one per Gargant) opens up a few choices on how to play rather than simply slapping more flyers onto a problem which, for me, makes a worse problem. I love flyers and I love the models, but Epic simply doesn't function as a fun game when allowed to be spammed to excess, so I'd look at literally anything before conceding that 1000 points of fighta-bommers is the right way forward for a Gargant list.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:49 am 
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Doomkitten wrote:

That said, I'd be quite happy to see a single really long-range, or solid indirect fire option available.something like that in limited quantities (perhaps available at one per Gargant) opens up a few choices on how to play rather than simply slapping more flyers onto a problem which, for me, makes a worse problem. I love flyers and I love the models, but Epic simply doesn't function as a fun game when allowed to be spammed to excess, so I'd look at literally anything before conceding that 1000 points of fighta-bommers is the right way forward for a Gargant list.


This got me thinking, would allowing the Grot Missile an option to fire an indirect Barrage instead of just the MW/TK fire mode ease the reliance on fighters for this job. Also gives the list something different to the main Ork list.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:07 pm 
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Grot missiles are a fantastic idea!

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:12 pm 
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I've got no issues with 1000pts of planes, they can't hold objectives and help mitigate the low speed and comparatively short range of the gargants, plus crucially it limits the number of gargants on the table... And it's not like most other lists can't take that many aircraft anyway

And to those who say excessive planes aren't fun, I would contend that facing an all-big-war-engine list can be equally demoralising and not a great deal of fun too.... ("I'll just remove this entire formation from the table and put them back in the box before they get to activate shall I? Excellent")

It's all tactical challenges at the end of the day, and outside tournaments you are pretty free to do whatever you like, which includes saying to your opponent "I don't enjoy games where you bring six formations of fighters, any chance you could try something different this time?"

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Last edited by kyussinchains on Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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