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CSM list review

 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:37 am 
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Hey folks

The final version of the CSM list has been out for a while and appears to have had some tournament gaming in addition to regular gaming.

I am hoping that the rules review will be over soon and as part of that I wanted to take a look at the CSM list as part of a yearly(ish) review but also to start the process so we can react to any changes that come as a result of the rules review.

So as a first step I'd like to get a list of possible issues with the list.

I'd like to discuss issues that people have run into during games and try to focus on those first before we tackle any other issues. I'd also be interested in hearing comments from tournament organizers regarding the standings of CSM armies at their events.

So who wants to be first? :-)

I am starting a topic for the Decimator now so we can all start "talking" about that :-)

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:47 am 
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I've posted my thoughts about the WEs in the other thread
Regarding the rest of the list-

I like the way the summoning works(looking at the SG forum thread) but I would remove undivided - is it ever used?

Raptors/bikes - perhaps a slight increase for raptors and/or decrease for the bikes as at the moment raptors are better (can use cover) and are alao cheaper.

Greater daemons - is it a problem that these are never used? The cost - pact, icon, champion and the daemon itself allied to the fact that even then the summoning is not guaranteed

Defiler - I sometimes use this just for the 75cm indirect 1BP to snipe at artillery on the baseline but it doesn't match the 40k stats anymore. If its changed to a CC or FF unit what stops it just being a bigger dreadnought with all that units issues. If it is to be changed I would say that it needs the speed to be able to keep up with mechanised retinues to be usefule

Flyers - I think pretty much everything has been said in other threads.

In summary - in my experience and from what 99% of experienced players I have discussed it with  have said, the Black Legion list has had a similar evolution to  the eldar list -  Initially they started appearing and were winning as players hadn't experienced them before and they appeared overpowered,then as players got used to them and how to fight them this evened out to a state where, like the eldar, most players think only small changes are necessary

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:33 am 
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@pixelgeek: You should read this thread. There are alot of ideas and objections for the BL armylist:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=11752

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:42 am 
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A lot of ideas/objections many of them by the same few people who have had an axe to grind with the list for sometime and refuse to accept any differing views

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:53 am 
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Well i hadn't read any pro arguments for the way the BL list is currently constructed.

And few people? I count around 10 forum members partaking in the thread.

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:00 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Mar. 03 2008,10:53)
QUOTE
Well i hadn't read any pro arguments for the way the BL list is currently constructed.

And few people? I count around 10 forum members partaking in the thread.

Really? what threads are you reading? The same people have criticised the BL list at various times since it was finalised. I have yet to see evidence of many of their complaints.

Personally I support the red corsair list as it provides an outlet without attempting to ruin the BL list for the rest of us

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:09 pm 
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The major change in the Red Corsairs was getting rid of the 0-x restrictions and replace it with a core formation-support formation structure.

No one posted that this was a bad idea.
I have no problems to switch back to the 0-1 restrictions but the support formation system gives a better feel of a mainly CSM force with allies of fewer but more powerful and/or specialised troops.

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:24 pm 
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These are my main issues:


1 - The prevailence of 0-x limits.

0-x limits are always in place either for background reasons (Daemon Prince) or in order to patch over an overpowered / undercosted unit and prevent the player from spamming it (Every other 0-x in the BL list).

There are alternative list structure limits available that would fix this, and also scale with the size of the game being played.

Non-scaling 0-x limits are bad, because whilst they might provide balance at a fixed points limit (3k), they will not provide balance if you stray 1000pts either side of that limit.


2 - The Free Supreme Commander

The Orks get a free supreme commander because of game balance reasons (They have an Init rating of 3+), so frankly they always need that re-roll.

The Black Legion (And L&TD) get a free supreme commander because of someone read a piece of background which says that 'Chaos armies are always led by a supreme tactician'.

Ignoring the fact that that supreme tactician isn't nessesarily going to be present at every battle, giving a free supreme commander to an army with 1+ Initiative is simply not balanced.

Most 1+/2+ Initiative armies have to pay 75 or 100pts to get their re-roll.

If a Supreme Commander were made a mandatory 50pt upgrade, I wouldn't complain; If the Supreme Commander were made an optional 50pt upgrade I'd be pretty happy.

This point applies also to the L&TD army.






3 - Flyers

Covered elsewhere, and I'm happy to see movement on this.





4 - Feral Titans, and to a lesser extent Decimators

Feral Titans are too cheap for their abilities; I've seen a noob repeatedly win against experienced opponents simply because he spammed Ferals backed with Decimators (They are especially powerful against Marine armies in my experience).

I'll go into more detail in the other thread, but suffice to say that changing both to Disrupt wouldn't be a terrible way to help balance them.




5 - Greater Daemons are too expensive

They're almost never used by experienced players because they're too expensive to summon, simple really.



6 - The list itself is not pretty enough

The list document (Both BL & L&TD) lacks visual appeal... it doesn't have any pictures of the army's units, let alone pretty formatting.

If Pixelgeek (Very understandably! For those who don't know I believe Congratulations are in order for PG!) doesn't have the time to work on the list's look, I've seen several attempts to make the list look more appealing on this very forum, and I'm sure the creators would be happy to provide their source documents.





Now to answer PG's points from the SG forum:

1) I think summoning is a mess. The original rules were much simpler but could be used to create meat shields that were no fun to game against. The new rules are just... well dull and complex.


I wasn't around for the early summoning playtests; I had wondered if it was possible that your Daemon Pool could be directly tied to the characters/icons you purchased (So each Icon would let you have two Daemon bases on the board, for example, and you wouldn't pay for them seperately). In that way you wouldn't have to pay for Daemons seperately to the icons, as they'd come pre-packaged (Presumably at a higher price for the icons/summoner characters).


2) Hell Blades and Hell Talons needs some more game reports

I'll pokle the Chaos players in my group.

3) Death Wheels are a good idea but should the Decimator just be scrapped and replaced with a Possessed Baneblade? Or a Plaguereaper?

I wouldn't say no to either or even both of those happening.

Notably a Plaguereaper wouldn't have enourmously dissimilar stats to a Decimator (Its main gun in 40k is a template attack that ignores cover... sounds like an ignores cover BP attack to me!).

4) Should Decimators and Death Wheels be single support purchases or should they be in formations? If the latter then should they be in smaller formations? Two units instead of a max of three?

In my experience they're only fielded as singles anyway... might as well ratify that in stone.

5) Are Bikes too expensive?

Bikes are ok, Raptors are too cheap.

6) What to do about the high number of Fearless units in the army

Dropping Fearless from the Decimator wouldn't be a terrible thing. Possibly from the Death Wheel too, although I'm on the edge on that one.

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:52 pm 
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Dropping fearless from Decimator and changing them being singles (instead of formations) is not going to work!
I wouldnt take non fearless single (short ranged) Super heavies in my list.


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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:56 pm 
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Dropping fearless


I'm on the edge on dropping fearless. I've heard convincing arguments both ways.

changing them being singles (instead of formations) is not going to work!
You use Decimators as multiples in a single formation?





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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:01 pm 
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On BL lists, following strike out:
- summoning (especially greater daemons, strategy roll rule, champion/icon bearers,...)
- daemon prince (the power, the power)
- free lords (why? remove that and then cost of several formation become more balanced)
- obliterators  (the power when compared to cost)
- lack of AA (except those unerpriced obliterators)

I haven't experienced Feral or Decimator at their full power but sure they look nasty


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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:33 pm 
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(rpr @ Mar. 03 2008,04:01)
QUOTE
On BL lists, following strike out:
- summoning (especially greater daemons, strategy roll rule, champion/icon bearers,...)
- daemon prince (the power, the power)
- free lords (why? remove that and then cost of several formation become more balanced)
- obliterators  (the power when compared to cost)
- lack of AA (except those unerpriced obliterators)

Just so we nip this in the bud before it goes too far.

Single line comments aren't useful. These aren't issues these are summaries of issues. They are also open to interpretation and that is always a recipe for disaster.

So please do be explicit about your issues and provide examples so a) I am 100% certain about what you mean and b) you provide details as to what the problem is so we can discuss rectifying the problem

For example, "the power when compared to cost" can mean either that you think they are too cheap or too expensive.

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 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:42 pm 
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Can I ask if you are basing the discussion on Ferals/Decimators with or with out the MW barrage propsed change?

Having both used and played against all the BL war engines using the core rules the only one that I currently think is too cheap/powerfull really is the Feral. I'd favour either dropping ignore cover or a small price increase, in that order.

I can't comment on them with the MW barrage change as I've not played with that rule on a regular basis.


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