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Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT

 Post subject: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:02 am 
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With the New Year approaching I figured it was a good idea to get this out and into everyone's hands. It is well overdue, but for those who know me this is the time of year when the company leases my soul.

So without further delay, I present the 1.5 version of the Squat list draft. Some eyes on it would be appreciated.

Notable changes that we will be pushing forward:
Leviathans were moved to transports.
Overlords were moved to support.
Leviathan, Colossus, and Cyclops all had bumps to their CC, bettering them to 4+.
Leviathan, Colossus, and Land Trains all had reductions in doomsday cannon ranges from 120cm to 90cm.
Transport descriptions for Leviathans and Hellbores were enhanced to include units they always should have had.

Things that I need feedback on:
Hellbore price drop by 25cm.

Land Train suggestion - speed has been a major factor in not bringing this iconic model, so I am considering giving this unit the option of doubling its road movement bonus from 5cm to 10cm. Think about it, comment.

Thunderfires - I seriously considered having these towed, but what would they be towed by? With few options, I reduced the price back down by 25 points and offered the option of adding four stands of Warriors. I also reluctantly changed the range on the twin linked battlecannon from 75cm to 60cm, renaming it twin linked cannon.

The stubborn rule change - it was suggested that it be changed to simply a single withdraw move. This would benefit bikes/trikes and eagles/hawks, but doom Goliaths who only had 10cm to work with. I'm on the fence and would love some discussion.

So, poke at this and let's get 1.5 solidly out before Christmas. Thanks!


Attachments:
Thurgrimm 1.5 Army List.pdf [142.78 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:21 am 
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Very interesting. I'll have a good look at this this afternoon.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:10 pm 
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looks good mosc liking the tweaks

could you not give the train 20cm move i cant see it as a game breaker myself & it would make them a different (faster but weaker) WE option


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:39 pm 
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Good to see things progressing!
Moscovian wrote:
Leviathan, Colossus, and Cyclops all had bumps to their CC, bettering them to 4+.

I strongly disapprove of this bit! A Titan or Gargant can stomp on things and kick so justifying higher CC but these are all just big tracked vehicles. They should have 6+ CC just as a Baneblade or Shadowsword does and if they suffer for it, tough. They have plenty of guns and firepower as their focus.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Well, this is why I post a draft. There are those of the community who have been playtesting the list who have found the WEs extremely vulnerable to CC. The argument for the better CC is that these are much larger vehicles, capable of housing their own CC crews in order to defend them. I am very much on the fence as my experience with the WEs hasn't been that bad, but when others tell me different I have to take into account their experience.

With a change on the line, people (like you) will come out of the woodwork to protest, which may be a somewhat underhanded way of bringing about discussion, but I'll live with myself. :)

Regarding the train, I didn't want to change their speed at all precisely because there is no reason why a land train could move faster than a baneblade. I'm willing to consider the road bonus mod because 1) I am out of ideas, and 2) because it makes sense that this type of vehicle was meant for significant speeds while transporting from point A to point B.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:43 pm 
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mosc how about something silly like 15cm advance 40cm double & 75cm march to represent something that can build speed up over distance ( i quite like the idea of land trains at full steam zipping across the board with their crews hanging on for dear life :D )


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:54 pm 
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PAR wrote:
mosc how about something silly like 15cm advance 40cm double & 75cm march to represent something that can build speed up over distance ( i quite like the idea of land trains at full steam zipping across the board with their crews hanging on for dear life :D )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu7vySQbgXI


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:12 pm 
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oops painting the wrong picture with words i mean like this ace train of stugmisers

it would not affect its assault or withdraw movement but it would make this iconic unit more appealing

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:19 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Leviathans were moved to transports.

Like this change (unsurprisingly :-))

Moscovian wrote:
Leviathan, Colossus, and Cyclops all had bumps to their CC, bettering them to 4+.

I shouldn't really raise an opinion here (since I haven't play tested the list yet), but on principle I would say that CC should be a Squat problem. So if they have problems with CC making them better at it feels to me the wrong way to fix it. Make them better at avoiding CC or surviving CC instead?

Moscovian wrote:
Land Train suggestion - speed has been a major factor in not bringing this iconic model, so I am considering giving this unit the option of doubling its road movement bonus from 5cm to 10cm. Think about it, comment.

I agree that something needs to be done to make the land train more enticing. But the inherent randomness of the road bonus (the road needs to be in the direction you want to go), It could count for nothing in most of the games.
I like the suggestion that was voiced about giving the train extra speed for dubbling and trippling. Felt really interesting with the momentum aspect of a heavy train.

As a suggestion for next time, would it be possible ( in the draft atleast) to mark all the changes with red? Would make it much easier to spot.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:46 pm 
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PAR wrote:
mosc how about something silly like 15cm advance 40cm double & 75cm march to represent something that can build speed up over distance ( i quite like the idea of land trains at full steam zipping across the board with their crews hanging on for dear life :D )


That's hilarious. Hope the boiler doesn't explode.

Btw how about making the siegemortar slow firing and MW on the land train? This funny rule about combining barrages that would prevent me from firing it at the moment. (Dunno if this cropped up already. )

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:43 pm 
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As with all things there are some bits that I like and some bits that I don't think are needed.

I like the Leviathan and Overlord changes to transport and support options.

I'm not sure about the change for the Thunderfires, but I agree something needs to be done with them so will test this. Discussing this with Console Avenging Angel we think that if transports are not going to be added, then we like the idea of giving them the option to have emplacements. I'm also having problems with the shooting from the Thunderfires as I find them very poor. Rather I'd like to see them get 2 shots at 4+ rather just a reduction in range.

I agree with the above that the Colossus and Cyclops shouldn't have CC 4+. (It wouldn't have helped on Friday night for me when I had my Cyclops jumped on by Chaos Terminators and Havocs. My fault I should have guarded it better.)

On the Land Train issue I don't think that it should have an increase in speed and also I like the way it currently plays, although I use them more at 4k rather than 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:57 am 
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Friend of mine couldn't find the Goliath Mega cannon. Formatting issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Engmir wrote:
Friend of mine couldn't find the Goliath Mega cannon. Formatting issue?


Yikes! I seem to have misplaced it. Yet another reason to post a draft.

FYI nothing has changed on the Goliath (except for the apparent cloaking device I've installed on them).

Anyone else? We're past Christmas and I'd like to have 1.5 done and out tonight. Please look over the changes and let me know if you agree or disagree and why.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:16 pm 
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I would have liked to see Towed Thunderfires ;D , but apart from that that strongly agree with all these changes. It Does all looks more balanced - and I can imagine taking Hellebores now ;)

I imagine 4+ CC for WE will really only come up in the odd game (Very few players I know use CC WE's) so no problem with that

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.5 DRAFT
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Mark W wrote:
I would have liked to see Towed Thunderfires ;D , but apart from that that strongly agree with all these changes. It Does all looks more balanced - and I can imagine taking Hellebores now ;)

I imagine 4+ CC for WE will really only come up in the odd game (Very few players I know use CC WE's) so no problem with that

Cheers

I might not have been clear in my response. The problem I have with 4+ CC is the level of defence it gives (potentially) against say terminator assaults.

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