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Harlequins?

 Post subject: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:51 pm 
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One of the major reasons I got into 40K back in the day was cool stuff like Harlequins and Eversors and other Assassins.

But Harlequins seem to be missing from most Epic games with Eldar. Why is this?

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:47 pm 
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Basically because they are soooo OTT that they are very hard indeed to balance. Effectively they become very 'binary'; either they arrive and decimate all opposition, or somehow the opposition manage to draw a bead on them - and they die very swiftly and horribly.

Over the years various people including me have tried to make a Harlequin Grande Mask list work - check the latest version out, give it a whirl and see what you think. . . . :)


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:42 am 
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I have also wondered if they are better to include in both Eldar and DE lists as a single formation in the Allies section.

Something like:
Similar stats to the Avatar as a formation (The Eldar`s well tested super unit) or a boosted Aspect or Exarchs type. This could even be an optional replacement for the Avatar.... but they also leave after a certain point perhaps too.

Holofields to keep them alive (perhaps even an always -1 to hit them - agility and/or holofields etc or just the plain holofields rule).

Small number of units in the formation.

They don`t have to be a super formation if you keep their abilities abstracted to a degree.


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:37 am 
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OTT - Over The Top?

Why not just push the cost up to where no sane person would want them, except as a "fun" unit if you don't really care much about winning but just want them on the board, then?

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:30 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Basically because they are soooo OTT that they are very hard indeed to balance.

Why need they be statted so OTT? 40k Harlequins are roughly similar, or only slightly more, in terms of cost and power than Aspect Warriors. They had stats and rules in previous epic eldar lists (the first couple of editions of epic at least) and people have models for them it would be nice to be able to have rules for using as allies in Eldar lists.

My take would be something like the below, it represents the power and capabilities of Harlequins well while keeping things simple and not needing any new special rules:

Harlequins Infantry 15cm no save CC3+ FF5+ Harlequins Kiss (bc) Assault Weapons
Shuriken Pistols (15cm) Small Arms
Shrieker Cannon 30cm AP5+ Disrupt
Notes: First Strike, Holofield, Infiltrate, Teleport. Initiative 1+

Troupe Master Character Power Sword +1 EA, MW
Notes: Commander, Leader

0-1 formation of 4 Harlequins plus one Troupe Master may be taken for 250 points, they may be upgraded with 4 Venom transports (as per the Venoms in the Epic-UK Dark Eldar list) for +100 points. Harlequins are allies, counting towards the 1/3 limit on allies and titans.

I took a look at the Harlequins Grand Masque you linked to Ginger, but I'm not too keen on it - it doesn't represent Harlequins very well in various ways and creates multiple new special rules. Considering Harlequins are rare it seems better to have them as allies rather than a full army IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:52 am 
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I think that they are better off as their own army.

Harlequins do ally with craftworld Eldar forces, but rarely. They also have stronger bonds with specific craftworlds, and Biel-Tan is not one of these, so they would not fit with the 'vanilla' Eldar list for EA very well from a background perspective, while in terms of a gaming perspective finding something for them to do which would make them stand out sufficiently relative to Aspect Warriors would be difficult.

Note that Harlequins are supposed to be significantly more powerful than Aspect Warriors, so they are not really terribly similar at all. In SM2 they were very similar to Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions, but had the option to re-roll their dice in close combat if the first result wasn't good enough. While effective, they really didn't offer that much more than Aspect Warriors and took up a valuable special card slot. I don't really see how they could be made sufficiently strong enough in EA without making them overpowered to be honest.

Harlequins have their own army in the background, and are easier to balance and field as their own army. On that basis, I think that they are better off staying there.

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:03 pm 
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There own army was a 40k raiding force though - not really a battalion level organisation...


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:16 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Ginger wrote:
Basically because they are soooo OTT that they are very hard indeed to balance.

Why need they be statted so OTT? 40k Harlequins are roughly similar, or only slightly more, in terms of cost and power than Aspect Warriors. They had stats and rules in previous epic eldar lists (the first couple of editions of epic at least) and people have models for them it would be nice to be able to have rules for using as allies in Eldar lists.

My take would be something like the below, it represents the power and capabilities of Harlequins well while keeping things simple and not needing any new special rules:

Harlequins Infantry 15cm no save CC3+ FF5+ Harlequins Kiss (bc) Assault Weapons
Shuriken Pistols (15cm) Small Arms
Shrieker Cannon 30cm AP5+ Disrupt
Notes: First Strike, Holofield, Infiltrate, Teleport. Initiative 1+

Troupe Master Character Power Sword +1 EA, MW
Notes: Commander, Leader

0-1 formation of 4 Harlequins plus one Troupe Master may be taken for 250 points, they may be upgraded with 4 Venom transports (as per the Venoms in the Epic-UK Dark Eldar list) for +100 points. Harlequins are allies, counting towards the 1/3 limit on allies and titans.

I took a look at the Harlequins Grand Masque you linked to Ginger, but I'm not too keen on it - it doesn't represent Harlequins very well in various ways and creates multiple new special rules. Considering Harlequins are rare it seems better to have them as allies rather than a full army IMO.

I am one of those who has Harlies :)
The list in the link is a refined version of the one that Sotec created many years ago. I make no claim as to how it fits the 'fluff' - indeed, I am an avowed fluffyphobe - and anyway GW may well have changed the 'fluff' in the intervening years. :D

What Elsmore and I did was to tone Sotec's list down to the point that it was playable, and did not just trash all opposition - which it tended to do in it's original form. I might add that this list already encourages the player to take them as commanding or allies of a craft world which seems to be what you want; I see no real reason to limit them to Biel Tan and DE - unless you know better of course ;)

Yes there are more 'special rules', but this is really intended as a 'fun' list, not really something to be formalised - unless there is a massive outcry to the contrary. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:26 pm 
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
There own army was a 40k raiding force though - not really a battalion level organisation...

^agreed^


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:14 am 
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So at best 60 Harlequins = 2 formations of 6 units or 3 FMs of 4 units? Would a Grand Masque equal multiple Masques? If so, couldn't a single Masque then make an appearance as an Ally in the Eldar or DE lists instead of the full GM?


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:53 am 
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Like I said, the list is set up to allow you to choose that option while not preventing other variations .
(Though you would not get a Grand Harlequin with that list) :)


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:09 am 
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OK it seems the discussion is travelling along a different path of the webway ;)

You were talking about the army as a whole adding Eldar/DE allies (Bulk Harlequins) and I was talking about the Eldar/DE lists adding Harlequin allies (minimal Allies) :D

EDIT : I see now that the Harlequin list allows both.

I guess the only thing that stands in the way of the Grand Masque is balancing the list due to their stats whereas the Allies option would be simpler.

I think both could be done though.

I think I'd even be tempted to start giving this a run if I could assemble enough units. :)

Question: Aren't Solitaires generally that - solitary? It seems odd to have them as an infantry unit. Could they be more abstract?


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequins?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:28 am 
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Perhaps modelled as a single figure on a stand . . . . ? ;D

From my *very* limited understanding of the Harlie 'fluff', the whole point is that they are very hard to describe which suggests the need for a very flexible list to encompass all the ideas.

The list as it stands does allow a player to try a mono Harlie army with all it's strengths and drawbacks - no armour, no air, no titans or space or transport or . . .; and *very* few units relative to the more normal Eldar.

However, in practice the list is designed for a player to take allies, or indeed to be added as Harlie allies to a given Eldar list (without changing any of these lists), which allows the player to address the above shortcomings at the cost of the number of Harlie formations. In doing this, players will naturally gravitate to the limited number of Harlequins that seems to be the desired situation.


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